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Kyosho Caliber 30 & 60 - Concept - Nexus > Caliber5 Tail setup.... HELP!
 
 
rguimaraes
Heliman
Location: Portugal - but born in England!

After several tries, I'm still not satisfied with the performance that I have on my Caliber 5 tail/rudder.

The pirouette is very slow for one side and slow for the other…

My current setup is the following:

Helicopter Caliber 5
Engine: OS .50 SX-H Hyper
Head speed: 1700 – 1750 rpm
Ratio: 8,97 : 1 (optional 15-tooth pinion)
Gyro: Futaba GY-502 w/ S9254 digital servo
Servo horn: 15mm
Tail blades: Carbon SAB 92 mm

Transmitter:
Futaba FF9 super (9CHP)

I’m setting the rudder and gyro by the Futaba manual and what is concerning me is that when I fly in rate mode to set the trim, the tail pitch lever (CA3062) has to be completely off the center… so when I re-set the limits, the right rudder is around 85% and the left on the max (145%) and still doesn’t reach the physical limit…

ATVs are at 100%
Rudder Dual Rate - 70% to have the stick limits coincident to the servo rudder ones.
Exponentials 0%

Gyro settings:

G Dir (gyro reverse): Rev
G (gyro gain adjustment): 1A 70%
ACGA (Rudder control gain): 100%
D1IA/B (contol delay I): 0%
D1DA/B (control delay D): 0%
Trk (gain tracking): 0%
Mode (operation mode setting): CMT (selectable from the transmitter NOR or AVCS)
Frm (servo frame rate): High
AVS (AVCS sense): 120%
LmtA/B (limit A/B): 85/145%

Hided gyro functions:

Mode (F3C or 3D): F3C
I’ve also tried 3D mode and the pirouettes are a little bit faster but they are not made at constant speed (specially on windy days).


Can someone give me a help on the procedure to set the rudder/tail properly?
Are my tail blades too short?
Is the servo horn too short? How much are you using??
Are the pirouettes slow due to the ratio that I’m using? (with this ratio, for the same head speed the tail rotor turns slower…)
What are your setup parameters compared with the ones I have?
Any step by step written procedure?
How centred are your tail pitch levers when you hover in rate mode?


Thanks
Regards
RG
04-07-2008 09:21 PM
 
 
heli-cuzz
Veteran
Location: Pittston, Pa. USA

First, how slow is slow on your piro? 180/sec 360/sec, anything more would not be considered slow.

Try 95mm TR blades. I do believe that is what comes stock with the Caliber5.
Your gain seems way too high. All my helis are around 35% on rate and AVCS.
When you set your tail up and you have the perfect 90 degrees required on both linkage points, your heli will never hold its tail with zero degrees pitch on the TR. Why they tell you this, I don't know. I set my slider ring so there is 5mm of the TR shaft showing between the slider ring and bearing inside the tail case. Makes less of a mechanical adjustment for me out at the field when fine tuning everything for the first few flites.

You can try bumping your headspeed up.

Life Rotors On!!!
04-07-2008 10:34 PM
 
 
rguimaraes
Heliman
Location: Portugal - but born in England!

I would said that is much slower than that!!!

Gain - 35%??? What is your gyro and servo??

What is the size of your servo horn?
By the manual it should be 14~17mm...

Thanks for the reply!

RG
04-07-2008 10:56 PM
 
 
kiwiflyer
Heliman
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

I agree with heli-cuzz on the tr blades and headspeed.
Piro rate is controlled by rudder atv. I run 100% atv's, no dual rate or expo. Thats fast enough for me at the moment.
Gain at 35% here too. 100% gain will fry your rudder servo.
04-07-2008 11:15 PM
 
 
rguimaraes
Heliman
Location: Portugal - but born in England!

The gain setup is not 100%...
Thats the rudder control gain... Its a function that adjusts the diferences sensed on the rudder between rate mode and AVCS...

The gain is 70%, but depending on the transmitter this can mean diferent values...

There are radios that have a scale from 0 to 100% on the gyro gain control that mean Rate mode between 0 and 50% and AVCS between 51 and 100%.

My radio has a different scale for each mode, so you have a 0 to 100% scale for both modes...

Whats your transmitter... is 35% the real value or is 35 in a 0 to 50% scale??

Thanks
Regards
RG
04-07-2008 11:25 PM
 
 
JFERA22
Heliman
Location: MONTEREY,CA

Tail rotor

For the gyro to work well you need to have the limit adjustment on the gyro idealy,between 120 and 130 not any less than 100 to 110. Or the gyro will not perform well. A low limit setting will effect the gyro's performsnce.It's in black and white

VOOOLAAAREEE~~~ way up in the sky!!
04-07-2008 11:29 PM
 
 
kiwiflyer
Heliman
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand

T12fgh. Tx and GY611 amp both display the gain.

Excerpt taken from "littlerotors":

This is where a lot of people make mistakes… This section is related to Futaba gyros only as that’s the only ones I use and they are the best gyros on the market at the moment.

This gyro is a GY601, but the same principles apply to the GY502 and the GY401 as well.

First up: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TRIM THE TAIL IN NON-HEADING HOLD FOR THESE THINGS TO WORK!

That’s a carry over from the old days when you had to first get your tail to hold when the gyro is in rate mode by mechanically trimming the tail linkages.

YOU DON’T DO THAT ANYMORE (for Futaba gyros anyway).

You’d be amazed how many people I come across who have problems with their tail and have tried to set up their tails the old skool way.

Futaba gyros don’t care where center (ie where the tail is holding) is. All they care about is the limits that they can move their servo between so they can do their job.

What IS important is that the limits in each direction are the same.

But Si, you aren’t making any sense! We need to set the trim in rate mode!

The reason why you don’t set the trim in rate mode is because the tail trim will be different depending on a LOT of different combinations such as hovering head speed and hovering pitch to name the two main components. You might get the tail spot on mechanically with one combination, but as soon as you go into Idle Up where the headspeed increases, the trim will change. If the engine goes lean or rich, it will change, so what’s the point? The gyro really doesn’t care.

Why is it important to have equal travel on both sides, and why should those values be large???

The gyro wants to know how far it can move the servo to the left and right to make the appropriate compensations. It’s important that these values be equal so the gyro gets a linear progression when it tells the servo to move.

Remember earlier in this article I talked about servo resolution and why you should have your ATV’s set to a relatively high value (ie about 100%)? Well the same goes for the tail servos, the gyro is a finely tuned instrument capable of making minute adjustments to keep the tail steady. If you have cut down the amount of servo resolution by having a low limit value (ie 80% for gyros), then you’re making life harder for the gyro than if you had that value at 120% which gives the tail servo more ‘room to move’.

Another bit of evidence that Futaba gyros want equal limits on both sides is with the GY401. Both the GY601/611 and the 502 have independent limits for both sides, you can set the values to what you want, but the 401 doesn’t. It only has a total limit value, not independent values, it REQUIRES that both sides of travel are equal. You’re required to adjust your mechanical linkages so that the 401 can use the total amount of travel. You should do the same for your 502, 601/611.

Make sure that your tail servo is operating in the correct direction, and also, that your gyro is working in the correct direction.

How do I check my gyro’s direction?

My way is pretty basic, once I’ve established that the tail servo is going in the right direction, I look at which way the servo horn when I move the rudder to the right. Then I grab the boom and swing the nose of the helicopter to the left and make sure that the servo horn moves the same way as it did when I moved the rudder stick to the right. If it didn’t, then you need to alter the gyro’s direction.

Ideally, you want to set your gain to about 37% or so.

On the GY601/611 on my 3D models I have the mode set to 3D. I found that the gyro seemed to perform a little better during pirouetting maneuvers in 3D mode, but it really doesn’t matter much.

How do I know what servo horn to use on the tail?

Ideally you want the tail servo travel to be about 120-130% so adjust your servo horn’s length until you can obtain that.
04-07-2008 11:31 PM
 
 
rguimaraes
Heliman
Location: Portugal - but born in England!

Thanks
I will try it...

Regards
RG
04-08-2008 12:14 AM
 
 
heli-cuzz
Veteran
Location: Pittston, Pa. USA

Quote 


Gain - 35%??? What is your gyro and servo??

What is the size of your servo horn?
By the manual it should be 14~17mm...



The gain is 70%, but depending on the transmitter this can mean diferent values...

All my gyros are the Futaba GY series. GY401, GY501, and GY611
My TX is a Futaba 9chp. The gain is displayed on the TX. I have 35% on rate and 33% on AVCS. My servo travel is set at 120%
My servo horn from center of the horn to center of the ball is 12mm.
I mostly run my headspeed at 1950.

Life Rotors On!!!
04-08-2008 04:31 AM
 
 
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Kyosho Caliber 30 & 60 - Concept - Nexus > Caliber5 Tail setup.... HELP!
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