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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > Carbsmart Sensor
 
 
cjthomasHeliman - Location: Dearborn Hts, MI -
The Crapsmart sensor, I like the new name, fitting it is.

Hi everybody,
I got my new sensor today and installed it, it works again. I was able to remove my old sensor just by pulling it out, and then I pulled out the heatshrink tube.
I took the old sensor and connected it to an ohm meter,I put the sensor in between my finger tips to see its reaction and the reading went all over the place. I checked the new sensor and got 126.1 k ohm at 70F. Like sorensen said there is some sort of glue around the sensor, I disolved the glue with acetone and found that one solder connection had become loose, I was inspecting it and I caused it to fall apart. I was going to try to re solder it, thought I would get lucky.
So I took a drill bit and reemed out the Artic Silver a little and with just a little bit of epoxy I installed the new sensor. I posted some pictures to show the removal and replacemet of the sensor and the setup. It's on a raptor 90 with an OS 91SX-H C-SPEC PS. Charlie



I'D RATHER BE FLYING
04-11-2008 02:53 AM
 
 
ESWLFSE
Elite Veteran
Location: Terra Ceia, FL USA

Wish I still had my 50 Hyper here to look at the sensor installation but it seemed to be hanging out of the head quite a bit less than the one on the 91 in the pics above. Is the space between the fins on the back of the 50 head deeper?

Those that have had failures - are these mostly on 91s or 50s?

Maybe try JB Weld instead of RTV. Its available anywhere cheap and contains metal fillers so should conduct heat well:

Quote 
It's water-proof; petroleum-, chemical-, and acid-resistent; resists shock, vibration, and extreme temperature fluctuations, and withstands temperatures up to 500° F.
04-11-2008 05:15 AM
 
 
ez2bgman
Elite Veteran
Location: N'awlins, LA

I have had the same issue. I am on my 3rd sensor. The 1st 2 sensors worked perfectly on the bench and prior to flying. I put a tune up flight on my heli and then went to plug in the sensor and power into the Carbsmart and I got no reading from the "sensor ok" light. I followed all the advice here on RR when installing and they still cr@pped out on me. The 3rd sensor is finally working after 4 flights, but I am a bit skeptical about it's longevity.

Here are a couple of responses from CSM after I explained everything in detail:

Quote 
Wed, 26 Mar 2008

Dear Gary,

All we can suggest is to send you one of the latest sensors in case those you are getting are not of the latest design - not that we've really done much in that we're struggling to reproduce the fault!

best regards,

Wendy

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:40 PM

Wendy,

I did everything that you suggested (with both sensors), but they still broke during flight before being able to activate the Carbsmart at the field. Both times I checked to ensure that each sensor worked prior to going to fly. Each time after the 1st flight, I hooked up the sensor and power leads (which were velcroed off to the side) and did not see the sensor light activate. I even went through the set up again, but to no avail. I have ordered 3 more sensors and I will try it again, but if it fails a third time, then something else needs to be done. I have always been satisfied with CSM products, but the too fragile nature of these thermal sensors is very frustrating.

Thanks for your time,

Gary

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tue, 25 Mar 2008

Dear Gary,

Sorry you're having problems with the CarbSmart sensor. This is one of those tricky things, as we (or our test pilots) have not managed to break one, but some customers are having problems. We've increased the heat shrink on it, but can't really wrap it any more because of size restraints and thermal issues. All we can suggest is making sure the glue covers the whole heatshrunk area so as to give good thermal contact between the fins, and so it doesn't vibrate against the fins, and also support the wire coming from the sensor so it doesn't get too much vibration and crack.

Best regards,

Wendy


It really is a shame that CSM is blaming the users for a too fragile sensor. I know of several others that have experienced the same issues. I guess all these problems are our fault, even though it seems to be happening while mounted to different size engines and using different adhesives to "attach" the sensors.

Gary
RJX of USA
Magnum Fuels
SwitchGlo
>Hot Girlz in da gallery<
04-11-2008 07:36 AM
 
 
creightoncarr
Senior Heliman
Location: Missouri City, Texas - USA

Quote 
dangtsi:
I believe this is because you used a non thermal adhesive and it is insulating the sensor

If true, that would lead to exactly the opposite problem, i.e. the sensor is reading lower temps than actual. His problem is that the sensor is reading higher temps that actual.
04-12-2008 07:05 PM
 
 
GMPheli
Veteran
Location: W. Bridgewater, MA USA

Let's think about this for a moment. The carbsmart is going to try to maintain a certain temp. If it is below that temp it will go lean, above rich. If the sensor is insulated from the head then it is going to read a lower temp than the head actually is agreed? So it will go lean. In other words the head may be at 110C, but the sensor is only reading 90C because it is insulated. I also believe that the insulation will cause a thermal lag. If the head temp goes up quickly because you go WOT, the heat has to make its way through the insulation before the carbsmart will know and richen.
04-13-2008 01:31 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

I've warned them 7 months ago about this problem and I mentioned it in my carbsmart review. I got the same reply as you guys did.

The CS is the only CSM thing I'm still running in my heli. Since Colin retired from RR, customer service hasn't been the same (I guess they have their belly full by now and don't need us) so I ditched everything CSM related. I'm just waiting for a CS alternative and you'll see what I do.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
04-13-2008 01:45 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
creightoncarr
Senior Heliman
Location: Missouri City, Texas - USA

Quote 
Let's think about this for a moment. The carbsmart is going to try to maintain a certain temp. If it is below that temp it will go lean, above rich. If the sensor is insulated from the head then it is going to read a lower temp than the head actually is agreed? So it will go lean. In other words the head may be at 110C, but the sensor is only reading 90C because it is insulated. I also believe that the insulation will cause a thermal lag. If the head temp goes up quickly because you go WOT, the heat has to make its way through the insulation before the carbsmart will know and richen.

Agreed. Except, Duane indicated in his post that the CS went rich despite the engine never getting up to set temperature.
04-13-2008 02:10 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

one thing is the sensor breaking open, another is shorting out... have you tried shorting a sensor out and seeing how the CS will react? You're into a surprise...

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
04-13-2008 02:19 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
GMPheli
Veteran
Location: W. Bridgewater, MA USA

creightoncarr:
Your right, I was thinking of it backwards. This makes no sense, maybe a bad sensor?
04-13-2008 02:48 AM
 
 
creightoncarr
Senior Heliman
Location: Missouri City, Texas - USA

Yeah, I don't know. It seems odd. I had the opposite problem initially, I couldn't get mine to move off of the full lean position. Engine was running hot but the CS wouldn't richen up the needle. Finally used a different sensor and it started to work better. I still don't think the temperature readings are 100% accurate, but I finally got it working acceptably well set at 100 degrees, though I know the real temperature is actually higher. As long as it works in some fashion I keep using it until an improved version comes along from someone.

FWIW, I removed the heatshrink from my second sensor before installing it with Artic Silver thermal epoxy. I also made sure to fully secure the wire at the connection points.
04-13-2008 02:55 AM
 
 
dangtsi
Senior Heliman
Location: Hockley, Texas, Waller

Creighton,

I called Nathan and ordered two new sensors the other day. We'll see how the new ones read compared to the existing one.

GMPheli,

I see you and Creighton have come down to the same conclusion regarding my CS problem. I plan to compare the new sensors with the existing one and will let you guys know the results. My CS controller seems to work fine but appears to be getting a high incorrect temperature reading. Actually if I use the 130C setpoint it controls but seems to stay more on the rich side all the time. The actual engine temperature is still running cool at the 130C setpoint.

I'll let you know what I get with the new sensors.

Duane
04-13-2008 05:13 AM
 
 
Bignose13
Senior Heliman
Location: Pontypridd

"The CS is the only CSM thing I'm still running in my heli. Since Colin retired from RR, customer service hasn't been the same (I guess they have their belly full by now and don't need us) so I ditched everything CSM related. I'm just waiting for a CS alternative and you'll see what I do".

Same goes for me, I have 1 new sensor ready to go on and when not if the sensor goes this carbsmart is comming off untill something better comes along.
04-13-2008 06:05 AM
 
 
GMPheli
Veteran
Location: W. Bridgewater, MA USA

dangtsi:
I was just thinking, where did you mount your sensor? Just wondering if it is anywhere near the exhaust port.
04-13-2008 09:58 PM
 
 
Eury
Elite Veteran
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Is everyone having these problems? I've got probably 15 flights on mine without issue, I installed it with Arctic silver epoxy. Judging by these posts, I'm the only one.


Nick Crego
I'm not going to put my lot in with economists.
04-13-2008 11:48 PM
 
 
Funky Trex
Veteran
Location: Westerville, OH - USA

No problems here. I have more than 2 gallons through a 50 with carbsmart and around 1 gallon through my 90.
04-13-2008 11:53 PM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Like I said. I broke two while inserting them but once the third was in and sealed with Arctic Alumina epoxy, it has been working flawlessly for over 200 flights

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
04-13-2008 11:54 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rcadd1ct
Elite Veteran
Location: Richardson, Texas

The ones that have luck with the sensor, did you install it straight in or from the side?

-RCA .......... Making Cuisinarts Fly!!!!!!!
04-14-2008 12:45 AM
 
 
Eury
Elite Veteran
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Straight from the bottom, exactly the way the instructions say, in exactly the spot the instructions say.


Nick Crego
I'm not going to put my lot in with economists.
04-14-2008 12:59 AM
 
 
rcadd1ct
Elite Veteran
Location: Richardson, Texas

RTV or arctic silver?

-RCA .......... Making Cuisinarts Fly!!!!!!!
04-14-2008 01:00 AM
 
 
dangtsi
Senior Heliman
Location: Hockley, Texas, Waller

GMPheli:

I mounted my sensor 90 degrees from the exhaust port due to the angle of the fins. The sensor tip is near the center of the head close to the glow plug. Hopefully the new sensors will arrive Monday and I'll get a chance to see if they read the same. I think it will be interesting to check them first at ambient temperature. If they all read the same there may be other issues to be resolved. I'll let you know what I find.

Duane
04-14-2008 01:56 AM
 
 
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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > Carbsmart Sensor
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