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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Wet Start to the morning

jamesmac
Heliman
Location: Edinburgh

Hi

I decided to test run my Wren/XLV installation. The turbine started first time, however there were a lot of yellow flames forced out of the exhaust [I believe this more commonly called a "wet start"] This lasted for about 4 to 5 seconds then the turbine increased to about 55,000rpm, then settled to 45,000rpm [idle]. The turbine ran for 30 seconds at idle then I stopped it.

All seemed ok, until I tried to go for a second start, when the gas refused to ignite. I tried the autostart several times, but the gas still refused to lite. I was topping up the on-board gas canisters every time.

The glow seemed to be healthy and there were no error messages on the data terminal.

Can too much liquid [instead of gas] in the on-board canisters prevent the gas from igniting? or would a wet start occur?

Could the wet start have caused damage to the engine [fuel ring?]

Any thoughts?

04-03-2008 01:41 PM

Bell 430
Senior Heliman
Location: West Grove Penna

Hello,
too much liquid will cause a "Hot" start.
What was the weather like? I've had problems in the cold and damp conditions. My propane bottle was placed almost horizontal, which was causing the yellow flames, I place the bottle vertical and the problem stopped. another thing is to adjust the amout of propane being used during start. Check you glow plug if it won't start.
The best way to eliminate the start problem, when you get the money switch to a kerosene start., this is the best thing I've done!

AMA 232513 My money flies better then I do

04-03-2008 01:49 PM

jamesmac
Heliman
Location: Edinburgh

Bell,

It was mild conditions and not too cold. Gas valve was open 2 1/4. turns and the glow is giving a good bright yellow to white glow.

I'm not even getting a "puff" or "pop".

Think I need to check the solenoid valve is working.

04-03-2008 02:06 PM

chopper jockey
Senior Heliman
Location: uk

I'm using kero start and so don't have this symptom. I've forgotten about all the problems I had when starting on propane.

It sounds like a question for Sara to answer...

04-03-2008 02:13 PM

HOMEPAGE

rkeith2
Veteran
Location: Norco, CA

The temp can play havoc with you especially if its cold and high humidity, otherwise the key is to get the gas and not liquid into the start process. I have got my wren down to where it almost lights like kero only (I'm jealous) of those that have that setup.

Keep in mind that it is looking for a correct fuel to air mix and of course a decent temp on the glow.

Most times I see too much propane/butane and as the initial start sequence spools down and the glow is lit there is then the distinctive pop and then much flame and spool up. Too little and it may not start at all making you think that things are bad.

What are your settings - Gas, glow etc.

04-03-2008 09:20 PM

HOMEPAGE

Bell Bloke
Veteran
Location: England

I wet start sometimes when it's dark so that I can get a better idea of the area that I am flying from, and to warn others of my impending departure.
To induce a wet start on a Wren just hold the prime stick in the full position for a couple of seconds and then enjoy the show.
No engine damage will occur but it is a little heavier on the fuel consumption at the start of course.

Here's one I did earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b5cSSA-stc

With regard to your little problem, it's a feel thing so try one of the following.

1/ Turn your gas up 1/4 of a turn and do this again and again until it lights. If it has not lit by 1 1/2 full turns, turn it back to where it was originally and try the plug.

2/ By Try the plug , I mean take it out and tweak/tease out the element a bit. Plugs are a strange thing they can work for ages and light all of the time with no problem or they can need a bit of messing about with at the begining to get them working reliably.
A new plug that has previously been reliable for a number of starts can give problems and need resetting ie taking out and element teasing. Once a plug has been running well for 5 hours say, It will probably not give you any start problems for the next 70-80 hours.
The plug on my Wren predator lasted 60 hours before I broke it, this I did when I took it out to move some wires

3/ Make sure you keep your gas can at room temperture, cold gas does give inconsistant results.

Once you get the set up right startin g will never be a problem.

'Miro' is on the money and always starts even in the snow.

The new machine took a while to get settled (20 starts) in but that too is good now.

04-05-2008 09:29 AM

jamesmac
Heliman
Location: Edinburgh

Thanks Bell Bloke,
It's good to know that no damage to the engine can occur. I will look for any plug or gas issues.

How are things progressing with your Wessex? I am keen to build something Wessex/MW44 related at a later date.

04-07-2008 02:50 PM

Bell Bloke
Veteran
Location: England

Wessex/S-58 is still on hold at the moment, I would like to try and put a 4 stroke Saito radial engine in it, just to be different! I know it's a messy old glow engine but it would sound very authentic, and I've always wanted a radial engine, or a Minuture 4 cam 48 valve V12.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkpk...feature=related

04-08-2008 07:11 PM

MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK,Gravesend, Kent

Awsome video Bell

I remember the Yellow that used to fly around the Kent Cost line with a guy hanging out waving to everyone,
the thing scared the hell out of and i gew up with aphobia of that helicopter, thankfully am over it now!

Really nice link

DO these still fly ? or have they been retired now in favour of the seaking and other makes ?

Matt

I bought my Mother-in-law a chair for xmas, but she wouldn't plug it in

04-08-2008 07:17 PM

Bell Bloke
Veteran
Location: England

Did you here that bad boy start up? Pop, pop, bang.........Vrooommm!!

Bloody Great!!

or check out this tiny 2 cam 24 valve V12!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6fPPlFXv78

Ps. I think they are out of service now

04-08-2008 07:41 PM

jamesmac
Heliman
Location: Edinburgh

B Bloke, I hope to try again tonight with starting the Wren. I have a feeling the problem may have been battery related: ie not charged enough! When you do a plug check [with plug removed, no gas] and go through the start sequance, does your plug dim much when starter is engaged? maybe you can let me know. Anyway with a correctly charged batt, it seems to dim very slightly.

Love the old Wessex video clip, great sound from the Wright radial. think most of them were turbines after that, some had twin Gnome turbines mated to a single gearbox.

Matt, I had one land in our school plyground [sometime in the 70's],like you, it left a lasting impression[on me and on the grass!], You should build one to nip that phobia in the bud! I have contacted these guys about supplying a fuse, but had no reply. Think you posted this link a short while ago:

http://www.helifactory.de/modelle/s...2476/index.html

There is also these suppliers:

http://www.modelltechnik-jung.de/cs...&products_id=46

Bell Bloke, is this the same scale as yours?

04-09-2008 09:13 AM

jamesmac
Heliman
Location: Edinburgh

Wren Turbine started with no problems at all this evening. I teased the glow element out a bit further and had a fully charged battery this time!

04-09-2008 07:46 PM

Bell Bloke
Veteran
Location: England

Glad you got your motor started, charged battery always helps

Seriously, I suspect its the plug teasing thats done the trick.
As for the gas mix there are 4 stages of sound to get the right mix,

1. Is not enough gas so no start

2. Is just enough gas so a clean start but can sometimes fail to start if gas can is cold.

3. Is slightly rich gas setting, This is the setting I use firstly because it sounds good and also because it always starts, hot or cold, damp or dry. Here is what it sounds like,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wL-yoJz6qo

4. Is too rich, this is where you get a loud pop or bang and some flames, not recommended.

Ps. Looks like the same scale Wessex as mine, V Posh.

04-09-2008 09:23 PM

Doug C
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern CA

Hey BellBloke,

stuff this into your Wessex !!!

http://www.conleyprecision.com/609.htm

Doug
(Wren-Predator)

04-10-2008 12:51 AM

Bell Bloke
Veteran
Location: England

Wow that is fantastic! And working in a vehicle too, lovely job.
Shame they don't do a radial.........

04-10-2008 03:17 AM

jamesmac
Heliman
Location: Edinburgh

BIG-200

Have you seen the "BIG 200" flight? Sounds awesome!

http://media.putfile.com/DNHP-Big200-Helicopter

04-10-2008 10:31 AM

Bell Bloke
Veteran
Location: England

Wow yep sold, I'm doing my own version, that sounds just great!!
Thankyou for that James.
Think I might have to use the triple Saito only though because that motor is way too big for me, pity............

04-10-2008 12:01 PM

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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Wet Start to the morning

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