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HeliProz . ZoomsHobbies . HeliHobby

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Align T-REX 600N 700N > More EagleTree Data for CarbSmart
 
 
duceduc
Veteran
Location: Saitama-Ken, Japan

LJS:

When you say to make the engine leaner for the CS to come up to temp, do you mean to adjust the POT on the CS or adjust the needle to a leaner position?

Do It! Do It™ - Duc S
04-07-2008 02:42 AM
 
 
joeycoates
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, Texas

Ok, I have two screenshot from a couple of flights today, please bare with me if they are too big or too small as this is the first time that I have ever posted screenshots!



As you can see my temps are a bit all over the place, but by and large the CS is trying to 190-200 degree's more or less. I have overlayed the throttle (between the gov and the throttle servo) so that you can see when I am autoing (any place where it drops obviously) and get a good idea of how the engine temps are following the load.

First off, these ARE NOT simple hoveing flights but are full of tic-tocs, high and low speed forward/backward/inverted, some auto's, and just generally flying around. I really need to do some gentle hovering and lower load flights, but I have a really hard time doing that.

A couple of things that I have noticed and am going to do...

1. This Eagletree setup is just plain cool!

2. My CS is set to 120c which is 248f, needless to say there are some calibration issues. I think that CSM needs to make it so that you can hook up via usb and calibrate the temp sensor. You would need to have a good thermometer for the initial (and possibly followup) calibration, but as is I am seeing about 192f degree's on the Eagletree dashboard when the CS thinks that the engine is at 248f.

3. I may try to set the CS to 130c next time out, but first I am going to get a flight in datalogging as follows...

4. I have used one of the servo Y harnesses that comes with the Eagletree recorder and have put it between the CS and the mixture servo. I have it set on the elevator stick with full lean being full back stick and full rich being full up on the elevator position stick on the datalogging file. This will allow me to log what the CS is doing in reaction to the head temps, and it will allow me to see at what position the CS is keeping the mixture while just hovering in normal flight, and when it adjusts for load. Knowing where the CS is keeping the mixture servo will allow me to mechanically set the CS more accuratly, I will no longer have to hurry down to see where the needle is at. Hopefully I can get some data for eveyone else out there who does not have the datalogging capabilities to maybe point them in a direction to set their CS systems up.

5. I am also going to up my gain on the CS to see if I can get it to react to changes a bit more quickly, it seems to maybe be lagging a bit behind what needs to be done. It has been set at roughly 55% gain so I might bump it to 60-65% to see if it keeps up a bit better.

So far this has been pretty interesting, and I can say without a doubt that the engine is running stronger/better with the CS on it. The CS DOES however have one main issue that I think CSM needs to work on, and that is to make it possible for the end user to calibrate the temp sensor. My temp sensor for the CS and for the Eagletree are very close to each other in between fins on the head. I think that the Eagletree is reading correctly as it reads ambient air temperatures dead on so this would indicate that the CS is simply off on its readings.

Another thing that I would like to see is end user adjustable temp settings and not just 90c, 100c, 110c, 120c and 130c settings, but this however pales in comparison to the calibration aspect.

Overall I like the CS a lot but it could be improved upon.
04-07-2008 03:19 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Could you please tell me which eagltree sensor you're using?

Thx

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
04-07-2008 04:22 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
joeycoates
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, Texas

Yea, it is the one that comes with the Eagletree kit, the loop sensor like LJS is using. I have it kind of straightened out running through the fins that go along next to the plug. It fit in there very well and is actually touching the fin instead of being suspended in the Alumina epoxy which is one of the things that I kind of wonder about. I might order another sensor for the CS and re-mount it. I have it touching the fin as well, but maybe I have TOO much of an epoxy bed around it.

I might be able to mount it so that it gets a better temp reading, but I still think that having a user accesable calibration on the CS would be a good deal.

I have e-mailed CSM about this, I in no way bashed the CS as it is one heck of a product considering that it was their first swing at making a closed loop head temp based mixture control, but I do think that through consumer use/critique that it could be made even better. I also mentioned your idea of a consumer accessable temp setting.
04-07-2008 05:41 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

I doubt CSM will do anything about that. I sent them my review and lets say I haven't heard from them since. I guess they didn't like my "improvement suggestions"

Anyway, I was asking about the sensor because my eagletree system is pretty much consistent with the carbsmart set temperatures. Usually the deviation is only around 8C.

My installation method was different though. I stripped the insulation from the loop sensor, unsoldered the actual thermistor, resoldered it with silicon wire and at a 90 deg angle, made a bed for it and glued it in with thermal epoxy. The thick heat shrink will make the temperature readings vary a lot. With my method its pretty damm close.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
04-07-2008 11:32 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
LJS
Veteran
Location: Minnesota, USA

Hi Duce,

You need to move the needle valve. The travel adjustment on CarbSmart is just for endpoints. I set my endpoints just under maximum travel and have been happy with that. My goal was to give CS maximum needle travel and it has been working well.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS

600E, 1910 1Y, 8S FP4270, GY611
600N, OS50 Hyper, GY611
Logo 5003D, 600+, 6S TP 5000, DS760
04-07-2008 12:50 PM
 
 
LJS
Veteran
Location: Minnesota, USA

Hi JC,

Hey, it looks from your data that your gain is set way too low. With your gain set higher, I would expect your temperature readings to be much tighter.

Just for the record, where was your gain set for those readings?

Thanks,
LJS

600E, 1910 1Y, 8S FP4270, GY611
600N, OS50 Hyper, GY611
Logo 5003D, 600+, 6S TP 5000, DS760
04-07-2008 01:16 PM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

The purpose of using the carbsmart isn't getting "tight" temp curves but consistent performance. If he gain is too high you might get those "tight" temperature graphs but engine performance will suffer as it moves from rich to lean.


For example it kinda sucks when you do an inverted backwards hurricane (not much load, needle is at lean position) and then piro out of it right into a set of aileron tic tocs (high load on engine). Those tic tocs are going to suffer for the first 3-4 seconds before the carbsmart catches up and puts the needle to rich.

With a lower gain the engine won't be as lean during the hurricane in the first place so the first set of tic tocs will come out ok and give enough time for the carbsmart to adjust the temperature.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
04-07-2008 02:28 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
LJS
Veteran
Location: Minnesota, USA

Hi Tchavei,

What you're saying doesn't make sense. He has a 30 degree temperature swing. That will provide a noticeable performance difference. By increasing his gain, he could reduce that by half for more consistent performance throughout the flight.

Also, higher gain means smaller mixture needle movements. With lower gain, you are more likely to fly into a maneuver with the needle setting in an incorrect position.

I guess we have differing opinions. The guys using this thread to set their CarbSmarts will have to decide which makes the most sense to them.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS

600E, 1910 1Y, 8S FP4270, GY611
600N, OS50 Hyper, GY611
Logo 5003D, 600+, 6S TP 5000, DS760
04-07-2008 03:01 PM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Quote 
Also, higher gain means smaller mixture needle movements

Its exactly the opposite. With a high gain, the mixture servo will swing from one end to the other with just a 4C temp deviation.

This means that the mixture will move from extreme rich to extreme lean between maneuvers. In practical terms what will happen is that before the carbsmart realizes that it needs to open the needle, you will start a tic toc at extreme lean setting. It will bog to death. When it finally realizes it has to open it, with a high gain it will certainly move to the most extreme rich setting which will make the engine bog further but now because of excess of fuel and not fuel starvation.

All in all you are right though. Each one has to find its best setting. I was just pointing out one shouldn't worry too much about the graph tidyness because as long as you're trashing the machine that will never happen.

When I need top performance during a flight, I personally just turn the unit off and run the engine at 150C. This is only at special occasions where engine failure is acceptable (if you know what I mean).

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
04-07-2008 04:31 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
joeycoates
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, Texas

You know Tony, if CSM chooses not to listen to customer responce/ideas then you KNOW that someone else will. I would not be in the least suprised if another company comes out with a similar mousetrap rather quickly after seeing how many people are using the CS. And you can bet that they will impliment some of the ideas that the end users are asking for, right now CSM has a lock on the market for this particular device and others will eventually begin to jump on the bandwagon. If this is what the consumers want then others will come in to fill that need, and if CSM does not continue with a development cycle then the others may offer something better.

Personally I would like to see CSM continue development as it really is their baby, but back in the late 80's early 90's Mercedes learned first hand about what happens when you rest on your laurels. Lexus came out with the LS400 and just kicked their rear ends with their version of a better mousetrap and then Mercedes had to burn the midnight oil to update their S class sedans to keep up. I hope that CSM does not do the same. Maybe they are already hard at work on V2.

I am going to experament with the gain to see if it helps or hurts, I can always go back to my base setting of 55%. I think that logging the movement of the mixture servo will give me a good indication of how much and how quickly the mixture servo is reacting to differing loads/temerature changes.
04-07-2008 05:02 PM
 
 
jbdww
Senior Heliman
Location: Round Rock, Texas

I have been playing with my carbsmart to get it ready. Here is a screen shot of my head temperature and the carbsmart servo signal showing how active the carbsmart is. I am running it at 90C with the gain at 60%. The next time I am out I plan on opening it up to some higher temeratures becuase right now it is running realy rich.



Skids Up
04-07-2008 07:40 PM
 
 
LJS
Veteran
Location: Minnesota, USA

Hi JBDWW,

It looks from your data that your needle was a bit too lean for the specified 90C temp. At the end of the tank, CS couldn't keep up and the temperature exceeded the specified. But if you're going to try a hotter temp anyway, no adjustment should be necessary.

Looking forward to your next set of data.

Thanks!
LJS

600E, 1910 1Y, 8S FP4270, GY611
600N, OS50 Hyper, GY611
Logo 5003D, 600+, 6S TP 5000, DS760
04-07-2008 09:09 PM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Quote 
You know Tony, if CSM chooses not to listen to customer responce/ideas then you KNOW that someone else will

no comments... yet.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
04-07-2008 09:12 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jbdww
Senior Heliman
Location: Round Rock, Texas

The last minute of that graph is getting hotter becuase I turned the motor off and was walking back in that period of time.
Joe

Skids Up
04-07-2008 09:33 PM
 
 
joeycoates
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, Texas

Hey jbdww, your temp is off from what the CS thinks that it is too. 90c is 194f, the CS is trying to keep you at 170 or so, that is why it is rich...

Keep the data coming.

Oh and Tony, we are going to have to talk.

Oh yea, you talk about your deviation only being around 8c, well that is about what I am seeing, 8c is 46.4f. 46 degree's is a pretty damn big difference, I am personally seeing about a 48 degree difference so we are in the same ball park so to speak...
04-07-2008 09:37 PM
 
 
jbdww
Senior Heliman
Location: Round Rock, Texas

Thank you joeycoates for confirming this for me. I was thinking the temp was a little bit low. I cannot wait to get my motor up to temp to see what my machine will be doing.
Joe

Skids Up
04-07-2008 09:40 PM
 
 
LJS
Veteran
Location: Minnesota, USA

Hi JDBWW,

Oh. Thanks for clarifying.

I have a question then. Why did CarbSmart move the mixture servo leaner at 6.75 min? With the engine that hot, shouldn't the servo have moved richer yet?

Thanks,
LJS

600E, 1910 1Y, 8S FP4270, GY611
600N, OS50 Hyper, GY611
Logo 5003D, 600+, 6S TP 5000, DS760
04-07-2008 10:01 PM
 
 
LJS
Veteran
Location: Minnesota, USA

Hi JC,

Hey, you're taking into account the adjustment of 32 degrees for 0. The actual multiplier is 1.8. So 8 X 1.8 = 14.4 degrees F.

Easy mistake to make.
LJS

600E, 1910 1Y, 8S FP4270, GY611
600N, OS50 Hyper, GY611
Logo 5003D, 600+, 6S TP 5000, DS760
04-07-2008 10:05 PM
 
 
jbdww
Senior Heliman
Location: Round Rock, Texas

Hey LJS,
I was wondering the same thing. I also thought that was strange. I wonder if they put in some type of fail safe code just in case someone makes a mistake and this is there way to try to save the motor.
Joe

Skids Up
04-08-2008 01:13 AM
 
 
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Align T-REX 600N 700N > More EagleTree Data for CarbSmart
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