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QuickWorldWide Ep and Wet Fuel Helis > Some hints for successful assembling of the Dominator 26
 
 
mhagenmayer
New Heliman
Location: Germany

Hi,
We are two guys from Germany and have both purchased the Octane Dominator 26 Pro Carbon shaft drive directly from QWW.
During the assembly of the kit we experienced several problems which brought our expectations about the quality of a heli kit to a very low level.
We have attached a documention about the problems that we found. We do not claim that everything is correct in this document, nor that it is complete.If someone want the original document(.pdf) please send an e-mail to us.
The solutions to the problems are proposals only. The purpose of this documentation is to make everybody aware about potential problems during assembly and to avoid as much problems as possible when flying this heli. Both of our Dominators are airborn now and hovering for brake-in.
Recently we had the opportunity to talk to Wolfgang Maurer from www.heli-shop.com, who is a distributor in Europe for QWW.
He was very kind and talked with us in a polite and patient mindset about the problems that we experienced. He gave us other useful hints for successful flying of the Dominator.
In this forum, we find many issues about the quality of QWW products. In German forums the products of QWW are not very popular and obviously there are no problems with QWW helis in Europe.
We learned from Wolfang, that he checks every Dominator kit that comes from QWW and replaces wrong parts or adds missing parts. Well, this is certainly the reason why the QWW customers in Europe have less reasons to complain. Thanks to Wolfgang and his team!
Wolfgang confirms, that the heli is flying great and we are looking forward to a successful season now.

We wish all Dominator pilots a lot of fun with this heli.

Michael and Werner
03-22-2008 08:20 AM
 
 
ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Thanks for joining in here. It seems you Euro guys have a very helpful dealer over there. It makes a huge difference to ownership if you have support behind you

we can never have too many, can we ?
03-22-2008 08:31 AM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Quote 
In German forums the products of QWW are not very popular

That honestly surprises me. Irwin told me at the 2007 Toledo Show that most of his sales were in Germany.
03-22-2008 01:53 PM
 
 
ozghost1952
Heliman
Location: Melbourne Australia

Quote 
During the assembly of the kit we experienced several problems which brought our expectations about the quality of a heli kit to a very low level.

Irwin also told me that his helis are easy to assemble - all you need to do is to be able to read instructions - they are the best in the world
03-22-2008 09:50 PM
 
 
JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

Michael,

Let us know how you make out after break-in.....how they fly, etc...
03-22-2008 11:04 PM
 
 
cobraw
New Heliman
Location: Germany

Quote 
Irwin told me at the 2007 Toledo Show that most of his sales were in Germany

Hi,
Certainly not. Concerning the problems with the Dominater we have also contacted a heli-trainer in Germany who recommends QWW e-helis. He did not know about the Dominator, but assures that there are no problems with the e-helis at all.

Quote 
Irwin also told me that his helis are easy to assemble - all you need to do is to be able to read instructions - they are the best in the world

Assembling is not the main problem. The problem is the quality of the kit. There are wrong parts, missing parts or parts out of tolerance mixed with a design that has a lot of room for improvement.
Please find details about this in our documentation. Currently we are struggling getting this uploaded. Hope you will see this soon.

Werner
03-23-2008 12:18 AM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Werner, I've sent you a PM, you can email me the file, and I'll host it on my web server and post the link to it here so people can get it with a single click.


Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
03-23-2008 02:03 AM
 
 
shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

cobraw

I've read through all of the documentation that you sent QWW. I actually see some issues that were of "personal preference", but I didn't see any show stoppers. I built my OD 26 back in August of 2006 and followed the instructions to the letter and didn't have ONE build issue.
I could actually name many many things that I might would have done differently with helis that I have built, but to say that the ones you have stated in your version of how the build should be are "absolutely necessary" would mean that I would have had at least 1 issue in the 70 plus hours that I have flown my OD 26 without mechanical issue. So I guess everyone's milage varies. I guess if I had an engineering degree maybe I could see these "issues" more clearly.

Gas is Great
QWW Field Rep
03-23-2008 03:20 AM
 
 
ozghost1952
Heliman
Location: Melbourne Australia

I have been in contact with Michael for nearly a month now trying to understand his issues and sharing my experience as well – you decide if these are “personal preferences”

Page 1– Diameter between the shaft and control arm was incorrect – too much gap
Page 2 – Part too long causing interference with rotor head
Page 4 – Cooling shroud off centre – fouling clutch – I understand this mould is being corrected – but what about all the helis with the old shroud? Will they get replacements?
Page 5 – Start shaft missing – needed to machine new part (lets not go there!!!!!)
Page 6 – Thrust bearing good for force in only one direction – only grub screws holding rotor head in any negative G forces - whole assembly could move with a bumpy landing
Page 9 – Interference between top of clutch bell and lower gear – need to chamfer gear. The spacing can change at any time – as the spacing between the gears relies on a friction fit – and lots of red loctitie
Page 11 – Tail blade holder – thrust bearing binds with outer casing
Page 12 – Hiller arms – when tightening – bearings interfere – need for machined ridge
Page 15 – Flybar see saw – difficult to centre – see saw collars too short
Page 16 – Tail drive shaft – pre drilled holes not aligned
Page 18 – Pre assembled torque tube assembly gears don’t mesh – also top flanged bearing can pop out (unless held in with red loctite)
Page 21 – With full torque tube setup – CG needs to be corrected with custom built extension to use receiver battery at balance weight. Balance is fine with belt drive

Rather than fob off the feedback from diligent and knowledgeable contributors as personal preferences – maybe someone should listen to what customers who have put a lot of time effort and expense into making things better. We will all be the winners.
03-23-2008 06:37 AM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Here is the file that I was sent. I looked through it, and there are things there that I didn't notice while building the 20cc gasser that I'm doing the thread on. I will go back and check the areas highlighted if I have already completed those steps.

From looking at it, it looks like some very good documentation. Certainly something that will help the QWW crew improve the design of their helis. There are things in there that are just personal preference, but for the most part, that all seems like constructive criticism on genuinely weak or poorly constructed areas.

http://www.bigpuppy.net/qww.pdf


Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
03-23-2008 03:51 PM
 
 
shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

Quote 
Rather than fob off the feedback from diligent and knowledgeable contributors as personal preferences – maybe someone should listen to what customers who have put a lot of time effort and expense into making things better. We will all be the winners.

That's all well and good, but I would think that if it has ALL of these problems then I should have had issues as well.

This is no different than what I have read about the 600n. Some folks will say that it needs a new clutch, blade grips, machined bearing blocks, one way...etc etc to be "flightworthy". Then you read other posts about folks putting them together and flying without issues at all.

I put mine together WITHOUT ISSUE and it has flown PERFECTLY for over 70 hours. I guess if you put a Quick together without issue then you are "fobbing off" on someone. Why is it like that in THIS forum?

I have been accused of recieving a "special" kit, being on the payroll...yadda yadda yadda......all because my kit went together without issue, and without failure.

So bottom line.....do all the mods you want to make yourself happy, but they are NOT necassary, at least they were not with my kit. I say this even though it is not the "popular" thing to do in this thread.

Have fun and good luck with your flying.

Gas is Great
QWW Field Rep
03-23-2008 05:17 PM
 
 
bubba01
Senior Heliman
Location: NE Pennsylvania

Shuttlepilot....

I have a lot of respect for you even though we have never met. I've seen enough posts by you to know you try to help people whenever you can. With that said, please don't take this as an attack on you....it is in no way meant to be.

Every time someone posts about having an issue with HHI helis (some legit, some maybe not) you quickly jump in with "I've never had ANY issues with my HHI builds or flying" which is your right. However, in a weird twist of fate, it does make you look suspect at best.

I believe most people, including me, find it hard to believe that everyone else who have/had problems "screwed up the build". "didn't read the instructions" or "hacked and ground without reason". While that may be the case in some of the instances, I think it's fair to say that happens with all brands of helis.

Before you ask....I haven't owned a heli from HHI since the TSK days and that's a personal choice I've made. It doesn't mean that I'm here to bash their products either. I'm in Allentown/Bethlehem at least 2 times a week and would love nothing more than for HHI to get their sh*t together so I could buy one with confidence. See that's one of the things lacking here....confidence in the company, confidence in the product, confidence in the quality and confidence in the follow-up service. And even though I know you mean well, your posts insisting about having no issues clouds the equation. HHI has started making progress in trying to help the customers instead of blaming the poster and saying it's all their fault...maybe in time this will pay off. I for one hope it does as it will benefit me directly.

Thanks for listening and thanks again for the help you provide.


Cop: Sir, have you been drinking? Driver: Why? Is there a fat girl in my backseat?
03-23-2008 05:44 PM
 
 
QWW Wolfi
New Heliman
Location: Germany, Austria

Gassers

Hello,
please let me introduce my self, as I am a new visitor on Run Ryder. My Name Wolfgang Maurer, coming from Austria and doing business with QWW since many years now. I am the owner of HELI SHOP® in Europe. www.heli-shop.com
We are distributor of QWW, we and also for a few other manufacturers of helis & accessories. In addition we are making also our own line of high end helicopters for aerial photography & film together our partners.
The posting of Michael & Werner moves me to write some lines. Since there is internet I never posted in forums, because most of the discussions are absolutely nonsense.
Even because of that, all of our German manuals are starting like this: “Don’t try to get some clear information or help about our helicopters in an internet forum. All a forum can do is to confuse any body. The forum is maybe good to change the one or the other cook instruction for Italian Pasta, but even not for helicopters.”
I can clearly see that Michael & Werner are no model builders, but they are engineers.
I honestly asking myself, why you are wasting so much time in complaining. It is much easier to read the instructions carefully, and build the kit proper. Maybe you received a wrong part, but any way it would be more efficient to pick up the phone, and telling: “Hello QWW, can you send me the right bearing block to fix my main mast…” It is really not necessary to make new parts, it is even more important to understand the function of the parts. A Gasser is not the simplest helicopter to build, but the quality is very good and they fly fantastic. This is exactly what we telling our German clients, and they are happy with the Gassers. In addition we packing the kits here differently to the US and we pre build some pieces where we know that the average builder can maybe get a problem. Bottom line, there are three kinds of pilots who have Gassers.
Type 1: The ARF Junky – impossible for a Gasser. Better to fly still ARF helicopters
Type 2: The engineer - knows every thing better but is not able to understand simple things. Please go and build your own helicopter. Good Luck!
Type 3: The modeller – congratulations ! You will have a lot of fun with you helicopter. Enjoy to build and fly your Gasser.
Now every one can understand why I usually do not post in internet. I try to get every thing to the point, and I do not care what some peoples behind there PC screen are thinking. Why? Because most of the internet poster are only computer gamers….but no real modellers.
We all have the same great hobby, and a feel it is a shame that some people are not able to see things clear. They will ever complain just too make them selves look so superior.
All I wrote here is just my experience of practice my job over many years now. It is not personal to some one.

Sincerely
Wolfgang Maurer
03-23-2008 06:36 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

careful there Wolfgang, you don't want to be known as the "Hitler of Helis", I mean I don't think you are going to make to many heli friends on the net like that, I mean I think you could have made your point much much easier and shorter by telling Michael & Werner "to bad, move on"

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
03-23-2008 07:16 PM
 
 
the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

oh yeeaa,, and can you define "Real Modeler" for me, I mean I don't want to be out there flying around 1 of my helis only to find-out I'm not a "Real Modeler" ,,, that would not be good

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
03-23-2008 07:53 PM
 
 
Alvie
Heliman
Location: Jacksonville, Fl. USA

Sounds like QWW needs to perfect one model of a heli Instead of trying to make too many models or Deigns, and then take small steps to deign the new model.
and shuttlepilot you Haven’t spent over 1800.00 dollars and get the Irwin treatment. I cant sell it and i can't enjoy it,,, so my moneys on the shelf to remind every day of how I was done my QWW. and they did offer to help on the form but did nothing,,,, Daddy said that talk is cheap,, I read the form and see how other people fair with QWW kits and service and i know i am not alone, but its not good for business to do people like that. and I am going to pop up untill they right there wrong....
03-23-2008 07:59 PM
 
 
Dilbeck
Key Veteran
Location: Springdale Arkansas

That may be the stupidest thing I've ever heard! If it weren't for RR i would not even been able to assemble my helicopter, let alone fly it. What an arrogant SOB. If it weren't for these forums some of us would have already pulled your heads off. When you build and ship a helicopter, For gods sake send a instruction manual with detailed instructions that a 3 year old can understand. Oh i forgot you guys don't even know how it goes together so you rely on people here at RR to design/test and improve it for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it doesn't fly sell it!
03-23-2008 08:42 PM
 
 
Stu.
Veteran
Location: Abrakebabra Kebab shop

http://www.bigpuppy.net/qww.pdf

That is pretty damning reading

Stu.

www.waterfoothelis.com
03-24-2008 10:38 AM
 
 
cobraw
New Heliman
Location: Germany

Please read carefully our initial posting.

The intention of publishing our experiences with the OD 26 was to make people aware about potential problems and to propose solutions in order to avoid surprises when flying this heli. We just wanted to share experiences and have an objective discussion. It was not our intention to open another threat for complaining and bashing. We do not like this, but we expect an open and honest technical feedback instead. Nothing more.

Congratulations to those who received a kit without any mechanical issues, we were not in such a lucky situation.
We have invested a few hours only for creating a documentation that should allow an easy technical discussion. A picture or a simple drawing says more that thousand words. This investment will pay off. You can avoid many hours for repairing a crashed heli just because a pre-assembled bearing moves in the block because you received the wrong part and the bearing was not fixed with locktite.

After we have assembled our both helis, we thought that it would be helpful for QWW to get input about potential problems and so we have sent an earlier version of this documentation to QWW in December already. The feedback was disappointing and it seemed that they did not really care about this.

On a local modeling fair this month, we met Irwin on the booth of Wolfgang Maurer. We wanted to show Irwin our documentation, but he was not interested to see this. He pointed out, that all parts in his kits are the same and that everything fits fine and we shall follow the instructions etc. We finished the conversation very soon, because it was not helpful for us. Then we talked with Wolfgang who gave us useful hints and confirmed, that the kits that he sells are checked before they are sent out. He has many years of experience with the products from QWW and he knows exactly where the problems can be hidden, but we did not know. His customers don’t see the problems that we experienced. Wolfgang confirmed that the heli is flying great.

We think the purpose of such a forum is to share experiences and get according help or hints from a broad community. Thanks to those who really engaged in our documentation.

One personal remark: on the one hand we are engineers that rather fit a main shaft bearing in a correct manner instead to rely on a drop of locktite that was not even there. On the other hand we want to mention, that we are modelers as well and not just beginners.

We are very sorry, that this thread was leading in the wrong direction with personal comments that are really insulting.
This is the reason, why we want to close this topic now. If you have any technical input or comments or hints, please send us a PM.

We wish all of you a successful season.

Michael & Werner
03-24-2008 11:44 AM
 
 
Quick Worldwide
rrAdvertiser
Location: Coopersburg, PA

Input is accepted

For those of you who offered your positive advise, it is appreciated. Whether in agreement or not, this forum is for offering opinions and advise that can lead to a better enjoyment of the sport. This is what we have been trying to steer this forum back to. However it is obvious that some are still not understanding what we are trying to achieve here.

Quote 
That may be the stupidest thing I've ever heard! If it weren't for RR i would not even been able to assemble my helicopter, let alone fly it. What an arrogant SOB. If it weren't for these forums some of us would have already pulled your heads off. When you build and ship a helicopter, For gods sake send a instruction manual with detailed instructions that a 3 year old can understand. Oh i forgot you guys don't even know how it goes together so you rely on people here at RR to design/test and improve it for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it doesn't fly sell it!

The purpose of the challenges was to get feedback from a wide slice of the heli market. So we can see where the heli or the instructions may need improvement. However we ourselves are aware of how the helis go together. As for testing, last time I checked helis are tested by customers and people outside of a company all the time. I don't quite get what the meaning of this commentary was, but hopefully you might be able to understand where we are coming from on this. If we are selling to customers, why shouldn't customers be the one to test it? Product testers are used in many industries to trial test and improve products, why can't this be so in the RC industry?

Quote 
Sounds like QWW needs to perfect one model of a heli Instead of trying to make too many models or Deigns, and then take small steps to deign the new model.
and shuttlepilot you Haven’t spent over 1800.00 dollars and get the Irwin treatment. I cant sell it and i can't enjoy it,,, so my moneys on the shelf to remind every day of how I was done my QWW. and they did offer to help on the form but did nothing,,,, Daddy said that talk is cheap,, I read the form and see how other people fair with QWW kits and service and i know i am not alone, but its not good for business to do people like that. and I am going to pop up untill they right there wrong....

Alvie, we offered by both PM and on the forum to help you out, but you chose to instead to continue being negative and not accept our offers, not our fault if you don't want help, we can't force it on you. By the way, I know there has been many cases where we are accused of blaming customers, however you have to admit that motors aren't meant to be pried or hammered apart, are they?

Ozghost, if memory serves me correctly, don't you have a 20cc Dominator? You previously made a strong case against lumping the 20cc and 26cc helicopter as the same heli, so why are they now allowed to be compared? We have went back and forth for a long time about the issues with your build, and I won't go into them again. However I can point out that I am not seeing where cobraw is modifying his own parts and then saying we screwed up. If you want to offer meaningful advise all we have ever asked is to present it as advise or observation, not as scathing. You are one of the main people that encouraged us to send a kit to someone like Eury who can offer an unbiased review so things can be improved. It seems to me that cobraw was offering his views to share with others, but has instead just given those chosen few new fuel to go on the offensive again. For those of you who are genuine about offering good advise we thank you. We are working toward a new QWW, and we appreciate those of you trying to help.



Chris
03-24-2008 04:04 PM
 
 
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QuickWorldWide Ep and Wet Fuel Helis > Some hints for successful assembling of the Dominator 26
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