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Scale Model RC Helicopters > Lightning Heli 5 Blade Head Product Review
 
 
Super-Hornet
Veteran
Location: Singapore

Hi Edward, u can always create a new thread and we all can go in and discuss.

SH
04-07-2008 09:33 AM
 
 
avconslt
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston, Texas

Edwardp,

BTW gyroscopic procession does effect real helicopters, whether two blade or multiblade!

Richard
04-07-2008 03:30 PM
 
 
Edwardp
Heliman
Location: Malaysia

SH, I'm a little reluctant to start one, as the subject's been talked about for ages and I'll probably just open up a whole new can of worms!

Richard, my mistake! The statement I meant is- "...effect multi bladed heads and not two bladed ones nor full sized helis as much." From what I know, flybarless two bladers hardly need much phasing at all, but do correct me if I'm wrong...
04-07-2008 05:35 PM
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

Quote 
From what I know, flybarless two bladers hardly need much phasing at all, but do correct me if I'm wrong...
Phasing is always 90º . . . . regardless of blade count or RPM.
04-08-2008 02:05 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Oh no it's not...

Phasing is highly dependent of the flapping rigidity of the head. I've done lots of playing with phasing over the last 12 years and have settled on a 70° advance vs a 90° on many of my two blade heads. Adding electronics to the heli for controlling the "elevator" and "aileron" functions can mask the phasing issue but it's still best to tune for the most pure flight functions by adjusting phasing mechanically before adding electronics.

I determine the proper phasing angle by hovering the heli on a calm day and giving a large cyclic input to one axis only. Let's say you give a big fore-aft input - if the phasing is correct you won't detect any roll action when the nose and tail rise and fall. If the heli does roll, the phasing needs to be adjusted until an elevator input has no effect on roll input. Same goes for setting up roll - there should be no change in longitudinal attitude with roll command.

You don't have to believe me but it's an easy test to perform. Try it and see.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
04-08-2008 02:28 AM
 
 
marc28
Senior Heliman
Location: new york

HHC is correct... I was a sceptic and he proved me wrong
04-08-2008 03:42 AM
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

As far as the physics go, phasing is always 90º
Input a force on a rotating assembly and the result is 90º out.

If you're finding different, then there are other factors at work.

Heli_Headcase,
After you do your phasing adjustment, what does your static phasing test show ? With a blade over the tail and elevator input, does the blade change pitch ?
04-08-2008 02:44 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Super-Hornet
Veteran
Location: Singapore

In terms of physics point of view, it is 90Degree. U see ppl mention about using less than 90Degree is because the rotor head is too rigid. When the head is too rigid, when the rotor disc wanted to tilt, it cannot tilt and thus u see the rotor disc being bounce around from forward tilt to side tilt. Because of that, the final outcome of the heli movement is not to the direction u want. It is like when u push forward, instead of going forward, it goes forward and sideway (like 10 to 11 oclock for CCW rotation and 2 to 3 oclock for CW rotation). Thus by setting the phasing of less than 90Degree, u compensate it. It is not the correct way in terms of helicopter physics but just to get what u want. That is why IMHO, I prefer rotor hub with at least a flapping hinges.

SH
04-08-2008 03:35 PM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Quote 
After you do your phasing adjustment, what does your static phasing test show ? With a blade over the tail and elevator input, does the blade change pitch ?

Yes, with the blade to be observed positioned directly over the tail boom and 'elevator' input given, there's a clear cyclic input to that blade.

Pure gyroscopic precession is 90° but as Super-Hornet also stated, ridged heads can skew that number. What's important is how the heli responds to cyclic commands, not that the phasing is exactly the theoretical 90° setting. But interestingly enough (slightly 'head scratching' too), I've flown very free flapping heads that also benefited from a -90 setting. I mean dead-free flapping. The head in question was a Kyosho Z61 "Swing head", similar to the K&S 818 of the early 1990's. But I removed the flapping coupling links so both blades were disconnected from the motion of each other, designed for extreme high-speed flight (over 100mph measured) and it too needed a phasing of around 70°. What else can I say?


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
04-08-2008 06:10 PM
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

Head scratching included, so now how to explain it ? ?
04-08-2008 06:20 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Wish I knew. Heli rotor head dynamics are extremely complicated as I know you know. I'm fighting with two different problems right now that I can't understand due to these problems not fitting in to my area of experiences. I know I can overcome the issues with empirical experimentation but the direction I have to go isn't, to me, logical. Go read through my ULSRS thread. Get down to the last posts, you'll see some of what I'm fighting with. My gallery has pictures of the aftermath of the first tests with the unruly head. Upper pix, not the ones deep into the picture sets.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
04-08-2008 06:33 PM
 
 
AirWolfRC
rrProfessor
Location: 42½ N, 83½ W

One thought is if, at the lower head speed, the baldes are laging in the grips due to aerodynamic drag. That can throw off phasing and increase servo loading at the same time.

If that's the case, longer grips may help.
04-08-2008 07:45 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Longer Grips?

Do mean, make the blade bolt-to-bolt spacing longer? Not practical in this experiment. But I have designed a lead-lag restraint to lock the blades into a location that puts their center of mass in straight alignment through the feathering axis of each grip. I'll post pictures in my thread later. I'm ready to test fly the new rig but haven't had time. I'm planning on bringing the slow heli to Huntsville, AL if it works as planned.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
04-08-2008 09:50 PM
 
 
Richard Morgan
Heliman
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia USA

Lightning Heli 50 sizeThree Bladed Head

The same problem exists with their three bladed head. I was very disapointed as I had hoped to use this head on my new AS550 Fennec using the Align E600 frame.

I spun up the head as supplied. However, due to the fact that control arms on the grips are so long and so far out of alignment to swashplate the head binds. I even had one brand new control link crack after less than a minute. The swashplate has problems as well and helps to create the missalignement. The follower also slips. To fix that you would have to drill and tap the face of the follower to add a set screw. It does seem to fit the Align 600 shaft just fine though. Even with the fix as seen in this thread, I do not know if the cost of the fix is worth the money. For me, this one needs a bit more refinement. My recommendation is do not fly this head as supplied.

On another note: I have a set of "OF" blades from germany that I bought from "Starwood" to use with this head(they are a thing of beauty), they don't fit, they are too thick at the grip location. ahem...... So I tried a matched set of funkey 600mm glass blades from Heli-World. These needed shimming due to a sloppy fit on two of the grips, this sloppiness was consistant using a mixed set of align blades as well!
04-16-2008 04:22 PM
 
 
Richard Morgan
Heliman
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia USA

Lightning Heli 3 Bladed Head

Just wanted to say that I got a reply email from John at Lightning Heli. He said that they would be replacing parts and or the assembly in two or three weeks, as they come available. So I remain hopefull, we will see how it goes!
04-18-2008 03:23 PM
 
 
joeb56
Heliman
Location: Newcastle,NSW - Australia

Hopefully the end is near
I got the prototype of the new head from Lightning Heli today and I am pleased to say they have addressed the issues I raised
I will pull it apart tonight and see whats inside

I'll let you know
Cheers
Joe

On the J curve of all things Heli, I am still going down hill, FAST
06-17-2008 01:03 AM
 
 
Edwardp
Heliman
Location: Malaysia

That's great to know! Lets hope it works out ok so they can start selling this thing and quickly!
06-17-2008 04:43 AM
 
 
joeb56
Heliman
Location: Newcastle,NSW - Australia

Unfortunately its still a work in progress
Basically thedesign of the head is now sound but there are still some QC issues to be resolved
I'll keep you posted
Cheers
Joe

On the J curve of all things Heli, I am still going down hill, FAST
06-17-2008 09:58 PM
 
 
marc28
Senior Heliman
Location: new york

Version 2 ?

I have both 3 and 5 blade heads for 50-60 size.I was hoping that the "version 2" heads would be better, how dissapointed i was.The swash plates are the worst I've ever seen.If these are version 2,I can imagine how bad V 1 are.
08-07-2008 01:45 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

I second that...

Last weekend I had the opportunity to personally examine the Lightning heads and swashplates belonging to Marc28 and am shocked products of this caliber even get past quality control. One swash contained a center pivot ball so sloppy AND rough it looked as if it had been allowed to rust for a few months before being given its black, oxide coating. I've seen many hundreds of swash units and never have I observed one anywhere close to being this bad.

The three-blade head was pretty close to being usable, a somewhat stiff bearing stack in one grip was the only obvious 'defect'. The five-blade head, OTOH, had one feathering shaft around .5mm (.02") longer than the other four and would have caused some nasty vibration due to that associated blade having that much longer a radius. There were other inconsistencies also but what I mentioned were the easiest to remember.

In my vast collection of rotorheads is a three and four-blade set from Lightning for the 450 class electrics. There's no clear family resemblance in machining finish or general quality, the 450 heads look much superior to the larger units.

Lightning - Get your act together.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
08-07-2008 02:08 AM
 
 
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Scale Model RC Helicopters > Lightning Heli 5 Blade Head Product Review
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