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GrandRC . CanoMod . Futaba-RC

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Kyosho Caliber 30 & 60 - Concept - Nexus > Alternative lube for Caliber 5 one way bearing?
 
 
tommytt1
Senior Heliman
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

Does anyone use something else for greasing the one way on your Cal 5, other than the diff grease they recomend? Tom

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
03-16-2008 11:29 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tommytt1
Senior Heliman
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

I did a search after I posted this, Sorry. I came up with transmission fluid. But what type, I know that Type F grips and Dextron Mercon slips. Any Insight?

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
03-16-2008 11:35 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli-cuzz
Veteran
Location: Pittston, Pa. USA

I've been using triflow on the one-way with good results.

Life Rotors On!!!
03-17-2008 12:06 PM
 
 
mcfast
Veteran
Location: Canada

I have been useing "Tufoil Lut-8" with good results.
03-17-2008 01:21 PM
 
 
tommytt1
Senior Heliman
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

Who makes tri flow? and where do you get it thanks. Tom

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
03-17-2008 09:49 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Helijost
Senior Heliman
Location: Pevely, MO - USA

Tom, you can get Tri Flow from Heliproz. That is where I got mine for my Cal 5 and 600N.

700N, EVO 50, Caliber 5, Beam 450, and comming soon TREX 9000 :)
03-17-2008 09:54 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli-cuzz
Veteran
Location: Pittston, Pa. USA

You can get Triflow at almost any automotive parts store.

Life Rotors On!!!
03-17-2008 10:13 PM
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Tri Flow can be had at bicycle shops, too.

Use ATF fluid, if you're going to lube them at all. It's NOT a bearing, by the way. It's a CLUTCH. It provides no radial or axial support for the shaft that goes through it, it's sole purpose is to lock the countershaft to the rest of the drive train when the motor is running. It's there to allow you to shoot autorotations.

I believe all the ATF does is clean all the glop out of the thing when you dunk it.

I'm not really sure of any advantage to be had in lubing the one way clutch in the first place.

If the material you use collects dirt, grit, dust, and grime, it causes the one-way to fail. If the material you use adversely affects the plastic parts of the one-way, it causes it to fail.

I might be a horrible person, but I've NEVER bothered to lube a one-way clutch in any heli I've owned. And I haven't noticed any increase or decrease in their life-span as a result.

-----

* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
03-18-2008 12:05 AM
 
 
tommytt1
Senior Heliman
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

I just got some from Ace Hardware! Thanks Guys Tom

I like your idea Dave, I guess just use the tri flow to clean it every once in a while.

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
03-18-2008 12:57 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli-cuzz
Veteran
Location: Pittston, Pa. USA

No Dave, you're not a horrible person. LoL

The manual says to use ball-diff grease on the one-way bearing.
This could be debatable too. It's a bearing and its a clutch.

Life Rotors On!!!
03-18-2008 01:01 AM
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

It's really NOT a bearing, it supports nothing and is somewhat free to float within its cavity in the large 50-tooth pulley. It supports no radial or axial load. It's officially called an "overrunning clutch".

Bearings to support the countershaft are installed in the big pulley and surround the clutch. It's those two bearings that support the shaft and take ALL the load. The clutch is either engaged, or not. It does nothing else for the shaft.

As long as the plastic cage that supports the cams that grab the shaft is intact, and as long as the springs that keep those cams doing their thing are undamaged, the clutch will function. If the innards get gummed up with slop, or if something inside breaks or deforms, the clutch works. Otherwise it begins to slip.

-----

* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
03-18-2008 12:52 PM
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Quote 
It's officially called an "overrunning clutch"

That's my boy!

Here's a short story of my experience lubing the auto clutch in my first Concept 60 back in 1992. Wasn't a Kyosho field rep quite yet:

I traded for this used C60 and did a total rebuild on it prior to flying. The autorotation overrunning clutch was rather dry and since I had many types of petroleum-based lubes at my disposal (am always working on mechanical do-dads), I slathered some medium viscosity grease on the rollers of the clutch. The C60 was plagued with intermittent locking and/or slipping of the autorotation system. Had it slip and then grab so violently on recovering with lots of power that the shock from the grab shattered my tail rotor gears. Home-made arrow-shaft torque tube conveyed the shock directly.

A call to Great Planes netted me a new main gear frame (containing the clutch elements) and a new bevel pinion gear, and tail rotor gears compliments of Great Planes.

Installed the new parts and within 50 flights experienced the same problem. Note: I again used grease to "preserve" this new one-way clutch.

In frustration I again called Hobby Services at GP, explained the situation and was told by their representative, "We'll send you one more gear frame but that's all." Then he asked me what I was doing about lubrication of the clutch and I told him about the grease. He suggested a light bodied oil, something in the order of Tri-Flow instead. I said thanks and from that time on will never use grease again - problem solved.

For the clutch to operate effectively, the little rollers need to be completely free to move up and down the short sawtooth-like ramps ground into the inside of the outer housing. Flat springs preload the rollers to make sure they stay in intimate contact with the ramps and inner sleeve (the part that needs to rotate free on one direction and then couple torque when the outer housing plays catch-up) otherwise the frictional driving force is lost and the parts can slip. If they do slip instead of drive, there can be a partial contact and traction of the rollers at one end of the roller(s) and this can cause then to tilt to one side and partially wedge themselves in between the inner and outer sections of the clutch housing. Now you have a weak and unreliable connection for the driving torque to pass through. This will eventually lead to unexplained jamming and slipping. Once the rollers tilt, they have moved in the ramp area more than the preload springs can safely handle and the springs take on a permanent deformation, preventing reliable operation in most cases.

Don't run these clutches dry, there is metal-to-metal contact inside and a very light bodied oil is the best way to go. Stay away from stuff such as WD-40 as it mostly evaporates over time. It's OK for washing old oil out but a proper oil should be used as a permanent lube.

Lesson over...


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
03-19-2008 07:02 AM
 
 
cbflys
Senior Heliman
Location: Central Islip, Long Island NY - USA

That is exactly my experience. Clean new one-ways really good. I used automotive brake cleaner. Sometimes the manufacturers even put the wrong stuff in there. Then, light oil lube - I personally have been using Tri-Flow. Honestly, I've never had a problem with them when using this method.
03-19-2008 02:45 PM
 
 
tommytt1
Senior Heliman
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

I just recieved the now bearing from RC Heliworks today. I have a can of brake clean and a new can of tri flow, and am gonna try it out. I currently have a Cal 30 one way in it now, and is slipping when I land and am throttling down. When it is almost to idle it locks up and works again. I have it apart now and noticed the shaft it rides on is very shiny where the beaing/clutch contacts it. I wonder if this is effecting the one way slipping as it is fairly new. I think I might take the glaze off of the shaft with some Emry cloth. What do you guys think? Tom

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
03-19-2008 11:39 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
dkshema
rrProfessor
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Are you sure it's slipping when you throttle down for that landing? Is the motor suddenly overspeeding or are you losing rotor RPM suddenly?

Generally, you notice slipping in the one-way clutch when the rotor system is under load and the motor suddenly overspeeds. A second indication that you have a slipping one-way clutch is that you start losing teeth on the main gear at the bottom of the main rotor shaft.

-----

* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
03-19-2008 11:44 PM
 
 
tommytt1
Senior Heliman
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

It is definitly slipping. I have never seen one do it in this manor. I have been able to keep it a certain throttle level so it is still slipping. I walk over and stop the head and touched the gear while it is spinning, then I lower the throttle a little more and it catches. It kinda makes a snap and it is engaged again. Wierd right? It doesn't come engaged during flight in normal mode and since putting a new engine in I haven't flown it in idle up.

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
03-20-2008 12:05 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
heli_headcase
Key Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Messed up!

Tommy, that's very bad. The sudden engagement is very harsh on the rest of the drive train.

The shiny surface of the hardened sleeve should not be a problem as long as that surface is perfectly smooth and has no fine ridges or undulations to it. Don't do anything to it otherwise that could remove material and reduce its diameter. That makes matters worse for the clutch rollers/needles.

Why don't you install the new clutch unit, flush it of any preservative grease or oil, Triflow it and report the condition of the rollers/needles of the clutch you just removed. Don't know how good your eyesight is but if you can get a good view of the insides of the clutch, look at how there's a flat spring on one side of each roller and that each roller should be pressed firmly against the inside of the plastic cage. Poke at the rollers with a pin-like object to check for the pressure provided by the springs.

Rollers not pushed against the plastic are the ones responsible for the slippage and a light layer of lube can make those week rollers skid or hydroplane on the inner sleeve. Slowing the moving parts lets the roller break through the oil layer and do its wedging job to lock the clutch. Stronger roller springs force the rollers to not hydroplane so easily.

How's that sound? Good luck!


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
03-20-2008 01:02 AM
 
 
Helijost
Senior Heliman
Location: Pevely, MO - USA

Something else to check is the plastic gear that the clutch rides in. My clutch spun freely inside the gear at one point. If you have play there, it could look like a clutch problem.

700N, EVO 50, Caliber 5, Beam 450, and comming soon TREX 9000 :)
03-20-2008 02:10 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tommytt1
Senior Heliman
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

After further inspection the one way looked fine. I took the glaze off of the shaft cleaned the new one way with brake clean lubed it with tri flow and installed it. Its a little windy for me to fly it today but I'll let you guys know how I make out. Also I'm going to say that the slipping of the one way was a little too much trans fluid, as I submerged it in the fluid for like ten minutes and then installed it. I think at the lower rpm it would slip as the rpm increased the clamping force broke through the oil film and clamped on the shaft as its supposed to. Just my theory anyway. Tom

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
03-20-2008 06:13 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tommytt1
Senior Heliman
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

I went to fly it today, and only got in one tank. Mostly B.S. little flying. Everything was OK. Thanks again for everyone's input. Tom

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
03-22-2008 02:15 AM
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Kyosho Caliber 30 & 60 - Concept - Nexus > Alternative lube for Caliber 5 one way bearing?
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