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XHELI.COM . Autography FlightPower . Advantage Hobby

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QuickWorldWide Ep and Wet Fuel Helis > The 20cc Gasser arrival, build, and review
 
 
rsalazar
Key Veteran
Location: Florida, USA

Eury, thanks for the update
04-03-2008 03:30 AM
 
 
jimboflies
Elite Veteran
Location: Beaumont, Texas,A Pimple on the ASS of society

It is starting to look like a heli now.. I think you are doing an awsome job on the build and the review , thanks for all of your posts...

Quick of Japan RULES
EP8v2 EX x 2
Trex450v2
EP9
04-03-2008 03:32 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ChopperEddie
Veteran
Location: Pennsylvania, USA!

Just tuning in to this thread. I'm curious about the finished product as well. Looking forward to the test flights.

Thanks for putting in the time and effort, Nick.

-- Runway? We don't need no stinking runway! --
04-06-2008 04:50 PM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

It should be done today, not much left.


Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
04-06-2008 04:58 PM
 
 
joeycoates
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, Texas

Nice post, I would like to see the "underdog" do well, but I too would question the spotty random sizing on the supplied bolts.

Anyway it is an enjoyable read and I look forward to a flight report.
04-06-2008 05:36 PM
 
 
Quick Worldwide
rrAdvertiser
Location: Coopersburg, PA

I agree ...

Bigger boxes as well.

Now included in all our our new kits additional standard hardware of varied sizes in addition to specialty hardware more pivot & shim balls, like SUS flange socket heads 6-8-10-12MM ...button heads, different size sets screws all the stuff you need but don't accumlate.
Additionally we have produced 10-8-6-5-4-3 shims in 3 sizes to take out the play from any area of our kits. These shims are necesaary on ALL helicopters & most every machined mechanical product that must FIT RIGHT
require shims. Additional shims will also be included...

QWW
04-06-2008 07:59 PM
 
 
rsalazar
Key Veteran
Location: Florida, USA

Thank Nick for the update.

And, Irwin, thanks for adding those items to the kits

I am really looking forward to the test flight and the report
04-06-2008 08:39 PM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

That sounds like a great idea, Irwin.

I'll tell you, this takes about 10 times longer from detailing everything and taking pics. So I put on Office Space and went to work.

One of the biggest things that I keep hearing are that the gears are misdrilled, and thus it doesn't mesh. Also, I got pms from the Oz boys about how the main and tail gear don't have much clearance and can rub, so this post is extra detailed to deal with those issues.

First I've posted pics of the pre-assembled main gear/auto assembly to show just how close those 2 gears are to each other. This is how it came from QWW. The second pic shows me pushing them together. It doesn't take much force for them to touch, I can see the friction from that melting the 2, which is something I've been told can happen.



Next up is readings from my micrometer showing the distance of the center holes to the edge of the gear. Each picture is in sequence, the first 4 are the readings from the tail gear, the next is the top gear. You can see that the inside hole on the top gear isn't cut well, it looks like it was done by hand. Then a sequence of 4 more pics showing the 4 holes on the top gear. Then 2 showing the diameters of each gear (according to the manual, they should be identical. As you can see, they are very close. No, they are not dead on, but awful close, same with the 4 small holes inside the gear.



Now we've got how the assembly goes together. It doesn't quite fit, the auto hub fits into the hole cut in the middle of the bottom gear, which isn't really round, and isn't really centered, so when it's assembled, the auto hub drags on the side of the hole. So, you either dremel the gear to make it clear, or you let it drag and wear in.



Next step is putting the main gear into the frames and setting the mesh. Pretty standard stuff, same as any other heli you've set the mesh on. Put the gear in, then adjust the mesh by sliding the pinion block and tail block in and out. The mainshaft is attached to the gear and auto assembly by a 3mm shouldered bolt and locknut, and is located vertically by a collar on the top and bottom of the top bearing block. That's exactly the kind of retention method I like to see, as it keeps the rotor head on even if the lower Jesus bolt fails.



I want to address the post a week or so ago from the German gentleman talking about all the things he considered design flaws in the heli. The one thing in that document that gave me the most pause was that his bearing blocks didn't have flanges to hold the bearings in, instead they just used locktite to hold the bearings in, which is COMPLETELY inadequate on the mainshaft as the bearings will eventually come loose from flight forces and cause a failure, and hard flying will only make it happen quicker. The heli I have here does not have this issue. The bearing blocks are properly designed with flanges to hold the bearings in place against the flight forces. These will not shift in flight. (Sorry, this pic is hard to get, the focus isn't exact, but you can see the flange.)



However, with the way it is designed, the thrust bearing on the bottom block isn't taking any loads at all. The upward load (like when it is in upright flight is being taken up by both the top bearing block via the collar underneath, and the top of the auto hub pushing up on the thrust bearing. I suppose that the top collar could be moved down 1mm or so so that it just acts as a failsafe against jesus bolt failure, then the thrust bearing would be taking the load. Other than that, the thrust bearing is just something that looks good.

On to setting the mesh. I've read the posts saying that they could never get the mesh correct due to out of round gears and gears with different tooth profiles. I didn't have that problem. I set the proper clearance on both the pinion and tail counter gear, and it all moves smoothly. There are high points on both the gears on the mainshaft, so I set the mesh on the pinion using the high point on that gear (no lash, that puts it at the right amount on the low point), and the same on the lower gear. It doesn't have any more resistance or play than any other heli I've put together, and I'm sure after 1 tank it'll wear the high points in and be smooth.

You can see in the pics that my initial feeling that the lower gear is too close to the taper on the pinion still exists in the built model. I suppose I could put a bevel on that lower gear to increase the clearance, but as it sits, there is no wobble in the gear and it doesn't foul the pinion at all. I'm not a fan of the autohub/maingear assembly as it sits, because of how the top and bottom gear can foul each other. If this was a heli I owned, I can see that it is possible to solve the problem by shimming the top half of the assembly up 1mm or so to give it the clearance it needs. Perhaps it could be done by moving the spacer that is used on the top of the auto assembly to the bottom, and putting a thin shim washer on the top to contact the bottom of the thrust bearing, but as it sits, I wouldn't trust it, those 2 gears are going to contact each other and melt.




Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
04-06-2008 11:26 PM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

I've got to stop being so detailed and writing so much if I'm going to get this done today, that last step would have taken me a max of 10 minutes to do normally, as it is, it took me a little over 2 hours with the writing and pics.

Oh well, you're going to keep getting details. I think it serves a better purpose with the details.


Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
04-06-2008 11:29 PM
 
 
ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Very detailed and nice reading Nick. Its good to see some things have been changed for the better.
(i just put my lower gear in a lathe and turned it down 1mm to give more clearance, now it wont touch the upper main even with the warping).
Looking forward to seeing the rest.

we can never have too many, can we ?
04-06-2008 11:34 PM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Pro Tail assembly

This kit came with the Pro tail assembly. My first impression is that it's a very nice piece. The machining is well done without the tool marks that are so prevalent on the head, and the black/silver/blue anodizing is very attractive.

I think it is built properly. I say that because there's no way to know, as the manual doesn't go through the build of the Pro tail, only the standard. So, I assembled it using the TLAR method (That Looks About Right), sizing fasteners up as I went to try to come up with the correct ones. I also checked the QWW website, and couldn't find the instructions for the tail there either. Why aren't there instructions for this?

First up is the tail box itself. It's a nice design, with a one piece center section into which 2 side plates key in locating the output shaft and tensioner pulleys. The instructions have you drill a 2.3mm hole in the side of the box to put a screw to secure the box onto the boom before assembly is begun. The first step is to assemble the pulley onto the output shaft, which is just a matter of inserting a setscrew down into the pulley and into the shaft. The instructions indicate that one spacer be placed on each side of the pulley to center the pulley in the box. However, on assembly, the spacers are not enough to take up the free space between the side plates. So, you end up having to add another spacer, however, the provided spacer means that you can only put it on one side, thus placing the pulley off center. This is manageable, as the belt ends up riding towards one side of the output pulley, and on the other side of the tensioners. It'll work, but it's not correct, the right way to do it would be to have 2 spacers that are half the width of the ones provided, then it would center. If this were my heli, I'd be grinding 2 spacers down so they were half as wide to properly locate the output pulley in the center of the box.



The pivot holder is attached to one of the sideplates, then the side plates are attached with silver countersunk screws in the rear, and the screws for the tensioner pulleys in the front. Here I ran into another problem. The tensioner pulleys are assembled by putting 1 spacer on either side, then the whole thing rides on a long 3mm bolt. Not a bad design, but the spacers here are too long. I've made it thus far without whipping out the Dremel, but this is a problem that completely prevents the tail from being assembled, so out came the dremel with a grinding wheel on it to take a tiny bit of material off the spacers. I guess the positive to the poor fit is it allowed me to take material off the spacers on one side only, making the tensioners and output pulley line up better.




Next up is the pitch slider and grips. The pitch slider is a nice solid unit that is all metal, and moves very smoothly. There is an issue on this that I feel is dangerous. As you can see in the pic, the pre-installed ball link has less than 1mm in threads to engage in the slider. That's not correct, that takes some pretty good loads, and will fail, resulting in a very fun auto, or a large repair bill. After the build is complete, if there is an extra long link like that in the parts box, I will replace it, as the rest of the long balls have about 2mm worth of threads, assuming it won't foul the center section of the slider.



I've never encountered the metal links that this uses before, they seem to work very well, and are length adjustable to adjust tail tracking. Why you would want to do that, I dunno, never thought of it before, so I just set them at identical lengths and assembled it. I can see someone putting this together and having the links at different lengths and introducing a huge vibe in the heli. The tail grips are nicely done in metal, with a single radial bearing, and a single thrust bearing. The bearings are very free, and the machining on the grips is good. I was pleased and surprised to see thrust bearings here, radial bearings only in the tail grips is really an improper design, as the radial bearings aren't designed to take the outward loads imparted on them by the spinning tail.



From there, it's just feeding the belt up the boom and attaching the box (again, I winged it, and did what looked right for bolts), but it's solid. There are no holes or other devices for keying the box onto the boom for alignment, so when assembling it to the heli, a good eye is required. The next few steps call for assembling the boom supports, fin holders, and attaching the boom assembly to the heli. I'm skipping them for now, I prefer to do that last after the head is done and all the radio setup is complete, just to make the heli easier to work with on the bench.




Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
04-07-2008 01:24 AM
 
 
jimboflies
Elite Veteran
Location: Beaumont, Texas,A Pimple on the ASS of society

The anodising and machine work on the tail grips look vaguely familiar.
Hey Irwin , were those tail grips,headblock and flybar cage made by Quick of Japan ? Just curious is all . Thanks.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Eury , you are doing an outstanding job on the review and build, awsome ... Keep up the good work. Thank you ..

Quick of Japan RULES
EP8v2 EX x 2
Trex450v2
EP9
04-07-2008 01:53 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rsalazar
Key Veteran
Location: Florida, USA

Nick, Great review, a lots of details.

Thanks
04-07-2008 04:38 AM
 
 
joeycoates
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, Texas

Looks good. The best thing about this review is that it is being done by someone who has nothing to do with QWW (and has actually had some differences so no "pro" QWW tendencies) and therefore can offer an honest assesment. The second best thing is that Irwin is following the build and thus is learning about small issues that he can then take steps to correct.

Yes there are little things here and there, but so far they have been just that, little, and as far as I can see they are in fact easily correctable. So far this really does not fit with some of the things that I have read and that is a good thing. I think that once the review is done that some very small changes could make this a pretty first class kit.

Looking forward to hearing about how it flies...
04-07-2008 06:31 AM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

I've got the head built, but not enough time to make a post about it now. I'll work on getting it typed up and posted tomorrow. The heli is basically done aside from the linkages.


Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
04-08-2008 01:23 AM
 
 
ozace
Key Veteran
Location: melbourne, australia

Nick,it must be getting close to done now, i hope you find time to update us.

we can never have too many, can we ?
04-12-2008 03:16 AM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Built

OK, it's built with the exception of gluing the boom supports, linkages and electronics setup.

The Head

The head is pretty standard, it uses mixing arms on the grips, like an Xcell, Century, and any number of other helis. I'll document this in the order it is built.


Swash and Washout


First the swash is assembled, it's a very nice unit, nice and smooth with no play in it. It came pre assembled, but all the balls and screws needed to be locktited, as there was none from the factory.

Next up is the washout unit. Again, pretty standard stuff, black anodized metal block with black anodized arms. The arms ride on bearings, however, there is binding when tightening the bolts all the way up, so they had to be backed out a bit and are relying on locktite to hold them on. One VERY nice feature here is how the pins that hold the washout links to the arms are retained, the arms have a set screw that engages the pin. Awesome design there, much better than clips or the friction fit that so many other helis use. One concern I have in this area is the anodizing inside the part. I see that wearing over a short period of time and increasing the tolerances. As it is, the washout has no play on the mainshaft, and is very smooth. I have a feeling it's going to get a bit sloppy on the mainshaft over time. The instructions then have you place the swash and washout on the mainshaft in preparation for the head. The antirotation pin and guide are a very good fit with almost no play between them.




Head Block, Grips


Fairly standard stuff here. The head uses 2 O-rings on each side that fit into the head to provide dampening. I've provided a picture of the grip with the bearings and spacers assembled on the spindle, basically the same design as every heli you've seen, which is good because it's proven, and works well. The mixing arm mounts are a separate part from the grip itself and bolt on, then the mixing arms themselves.

Here's where I ran into more difficulties. The mixing arms have 2 bearings in them, but they do not seem to have any flanges or spacers inside to keep the bearings seperate, instead they rely entirely on locktite to keep them in place. I did a little research and looked at pics on the QWW site and elsewhere, and it seems that the standard practice on these is to assemble them so the outside bearing ends up inside the arm butted up against the inside bearing. I'm not a huge fan of this, with the bearings out at the ends retained properly, the arm is well supported and has less of a lever effect on it. It's probably not going to cause issues, but I'm not a fan of it. Where the problem is on the one I put together is in binding. First, it calls for 2 spacers (a 3x5x1 and a 3x5x3) between the arm and the grip, all held on with a 3x14mm screw. Sounds fine, unfortunately there are no 3x14mm screws in the hardware kit. Dropping it down to a single spacer allows the use of one of the provided screws, but nothing I could do short of backing the screw out slightly with make the arms move smoothly. The issue is with the spacers and the bearings loading on each other. Any tension on that screw either freezes the arms in place, or just makes them very hard to turn, and as the screw is backed out the arms get notchy, then finally smooth. It can be used like this, as long as you have faith in locktite holding it with no torque on the bolt. Personally, I don't have that faith. This could be solved with correct use of spacers and shims, but not with what is provided in the kit.

Next up is putting the pins into the bottom of the headblock. This is a great idea, the pins screw in rather than being pressed like so many others, allowing replacement.




Flybar cage/assembly


The flybar rides in a seesaw through the center of the head, and is supported by a fully enclosed flybar cage. As mentioned before, the bearings in the side of the block that the seesaw pivots on are not shielded, I would like to see them shielded. The seesaw has a nice smooth movement with no binding. The instructions never indicate when or what balls to attach to the side of the seesaw, so I guessed based on pictures and put a set of the shorter balls in at this point. There are matching holes on either side of the seesaw, which works well, but it would have been nice for QWW to put the holes staggered on opposite sides so we could have some options as far as flybar inputs.

I said it at the beginning, and I'll say it again, I like the Flybar cage. Actually, I like it even more now, I didn't notice before how it separates in the middle with no screws for ease of installation. I really like the design of this part. On installing the flbar and cage to the head, I discovered that there is a huge variance between the width of the seesaw and the cage (as seen in the picture). The instructions don't indicate that it should be there, or how to deal with it. Looking around, I had 4 brass spacers left over from a previous assembly that fit in there and took up most of the gap. However, there is still a small amount of play there that can't be taken out with the provided hardware. A shim kit sure would be nice here. The instructions also don't mention mounting the ball links to the flybar cage, so if you don't anticipate it and install them at this point, you're going to be pulling the assembly apart again in a few steps. Luckily I anticipated it, and made up a link to the proper size and installed it. (they provide lengths later in the manual, although they don't tell you what size rod ends to use, there's 2 sizes. Bizarre.)



Center up the flybar, and tighten up the SHCS on each side of the cage, and the flybar assembly is done, and the head is ready to be bolted on. The instructions here call for a 3x14mm SHCS, and I used the one pictured.



Anyone see a problem? That's right, it's not a shouldered bolt. This NEEDS to be a shouldered bolt. Digging around the hardware kit, there isn't a usable replacement. All of the shouldered bolts have the shoulder too long, and everything else is simply threaded the whole length. If you buy one of these helis, DO NOT use this bolt, it will shear at some point, the threads are not capable of handling the loads that are being imposed on it.




Assembled


The heli is now all built after bolting on the boom and fins. All that is left is making up linkages to the proper sizes, assembling the boom supports with the provided carbon rods and aluminum ends and installing the electronics.



I've took a couple of pictures that help you get an idea of the size. The heli with the red TT paddles is a Predator Carbon Gasser with a G231 in it. As you can see, the OD 20 is slightly shorter in length, and slightly taller in height. The width of the 2 is comparable. Next up is comparing the size to something everyone is familiar with, a 600N. There really is no comparison, the OD is much larger in every dimension, and with no electronics in it beyond the 3 cyclic servos, and no pipe, it weighs more than the 600N does RTF without canopy as seen.

Predator comparison




600N comparison




This last pic is maybe the most interesting of all. This is a pic of all the hardware I have left over. Granted, I still need to install the blades, canopy and boom supports, but I have about 2 pounds worth of screws left. The problem of missing hardware isn't because I didn't get enough, I got enough to build 4 helis, I just didn't get all of the right sizes.




I'm thinking about a conclusion to write on the mechanics, I'll get to it before the end of the day, I just have to decide how to put it.


Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
04-12-2008 07:06 PM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Conclusion

This one is tough. There's a number of things I'm impressed by, and a number of things that disappoint me on the Octane Dominator 20cc. I'd like to highlight some of the things that I thought were very good in the design of the heli:

Postives

Very nice clutch system. I like the weighted nature of it and the potential to tune the system is great.

I like the plastic blocks with metal threaded inserts that hold the rear of the frames together. They do a great job of creating a solid assembly, and they are lightweight.

Nice one piece tail box with side plates that sandwich the output shaft. Should be easy to maintain the bearings, and the belt is right out there so it is easy to monitor the condition of it.

Did I mention the flybar cage yet? I do really like that aspect of the head.

Nice solid swash. No extra play, no grittiness, no issues. It's very nice.

Replaceable pins in the bottom of the head block. All head blocks should be done like this.

Nice smooth tail pitch change mechanism, feels sturdy, works well. Very nice.

Thrust bearings in tail.

Negatives

Missing screws. 1 or 2 I can see, but this is ridiculous. I was never able to install the ignition pickup because the screws were missing, and nothing was available in what was there that would work.

Thrust bearings on mainshaft don't do anything. The way it goes together, the thrust bearings are just extra weight.

Lack of clearance between the 2 gears on the mainshaft. Any pressure, and the 2 gears can touch, which would cause them to melt. QWW says that they've never seen it happen, but I've gotten PMs from 2 people who have had it happen on their helis.

Wear point on rear cyclic servo. Without cutting the frames, the wire on the rear cyclic servo is forced up against a sharp edge of the frame. This WILL cause a crash if not dealt with.

Spacers etc in the tail box. The way it came I HAD to grind down the spacers to to get the tensioners into the tail box. Also, the spacers were the wrong size for the output pulley, forcing it off center.

Ball link on pitch slider in tail is too short. It is unsafe the way it is. Luckily, it looks like there's enough extras in the hardware kit so it can be replaced with one that will work.

Mixing arms on the grips and washout arms binding unless screws are left loose. This is easily solved with shims, but shims are not included in the kit (QWW says future kits will include the shims, so this may be a non issue with future kits).

Non shouldered bolt for jesus bolt. Seriously? Everyone knows that's not right. I can only assume that's an oversight.

Instructions are inconsistent. For the most part what's there is good, with good diagrams, but some steps are skipped altogether. Also the instructions have numerous steps where they tell you that there are a few different versions of parts, and your may look different. Why? If you've revised the part, get rid of the old ones, and update the instructions.

Conclusion

This is going to piss off a lot of people, but this is it. I'm not going to fly the heli or go any further with it. To me, a few of the things in the heli are deal breakers, and I don't trust it to fly safely as it is. I'm not going to buy the heli, as as such, I'm not going to put the time and money into correcting the things that I see that I think are big problems. Also, if I'm not going to buy it, I don't think I should fly it, because of the huge hit it will take in value. I'm sure QWW will want to sell it once they address the things I've found, so it wouldn't be fair to them. Sorry guys. That's just how it is. I started this off with the intention of buying it, as I wanted a gasser. However, part way through the build I could see where it was headed and bought a Predator Carbon SE gasser instead.

A lot of the problems I see in it could be fixed with a good shim kit and a consistent set of hardware to build the heli with. The rest are a little more difficult to address, but for the most part are things an experienced heli builder could fix with a few hours of work, and a few trips to the hobby shop. I didn't encounter anywhere near the amount of issues as the guys who got them down in OZ, so it seems that QWW is making rapid changes and improvements to their kits. I'd have no problem flying this heli everyday with a few mods, and they are pretty much all ones I could do here, but I can't justify spending the money on it at this point, so I will not be doing mods to a heli that I do not own.

I do think the overall design of the heli is good. It's not a 3d flyer, but it does look like a very solid sport flyer that is let down by some detail work. Once the issues that I've seen are taken care of, I'd have no problem owning and flying one, and as you can see from this write up, I'm pretty picky. I've seen photos of the prototype V2 frame design, and they look great. They look to go a long way towards slimming the heli down and improving the weight distribution, which should make it more of a 3d design.

The final thing I want to touch on is QWW support and customer service. I've had my share of problems with QWW in the past. Do a search, and you can find many posts with me absolutely railing on them for the quality of support. My current experience is exactly opposite my previous ones. QWW has been responsive to my questions and needs, and didn't blame me for the problems that I had. I've already seen them take steps towards improving the product just from the feedback I have given them in this review. In the past, I wouldn't have a QWW heli no matter how good the product was, just because of the customer service, but they've said how they are making real efforts towards improving, and I have experienced those improvements. I'm impressed with what they have done, the service I've experienced since the start of this build is second to none.

So the final answer to the Pepsi Challenge is that I'll have Coke. Sorry. Hopefully this doesn't lead to me getting bashed by QWW, or anyone else bashing QWW for this post. Hopefully everyone see this as being constructive, and not a source for more bitching. I've tried to tread a VERY fine line with this review.



I'll be editing the first post in this thread to consolidate it all into there later. For now, feel free to comment and ask questions so I cna address them before going through the work of consolidating it.


Nick Crego
I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says Shenanigans
04-12-2008 09:47 PM
 
 
ChopperEddie
Veteran
Location: Pennsylvania, USA!

Nick,

Again, thanks for a well written, well put together and bias-free build review. I appreciate the time and effort you put in. Building a heli is time consuming enough (especially with a full-time job and a child), building AND putting together such a professional review goes above and beyond.

-- Runway? We don't need no stinking runway! --
04-12-2008 09:55 PM
 
 
JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

Nick,

I concur with ChopperEddie's comments and also thank you for your time and thorough review.....

It was a good read and should be helpful in QWW addressing some of the issues AND in helping the potential customer in building the heli correctly.....

Many KUDOS to you.....
04-12-2008 10:26 PM
 
 
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QuickWorldWide Ep and Wet Fuel Helis > The 20cc Gasser arrival, build, and review
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