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Esprit Model . Thunder Power RC . Real Raptors

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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > Contest Flying
 
 
10X
Senior Heliman
Location: Salisbury N.C.

I was wanting to know where I could find info. on FAI/F3C rules and equipment. I have given thought to getting into the contest stuff. But I don't know the first thing or anyone local that can tell me. I would like to know what type equipment was needed and the format, the do's and don'ts etc. Thanks for your help
02-19-2008 04:21 AM
 
 
Salesmanheliboy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

10X,

First of all, welcome!

We have several contests in the US and my suggestion is that you get to as many as you can and get involved.

It sounds like this is your first season of contest work so I would recomend getting your feet wet in one of the AMA classes:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events...0Helicopter.pdf

I hold a contest in Nashville and all of the "seasoned" contest pilots are always willing to spend a great deal of time to help all skill level pilots have a better experence.

http://caseco-inc.com/chopper/

Good Luck,

Tim DiPeri
02-19-2008 04:54 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
10X
Senior Heliman
Location: Salisbury N.C.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

When you start looking into this, its harder than you think. Some tell you all you have to do is hover around, thats true but when you have to do it perfect thats a different story. I flew helis for about 2 years then I took some time off and now I'm looking at getting back into it. I enjoyed the 3D stuff and will continue to do 3D, but when you watch the top pilots do 3D you can tell the contest pilots from the 3 Der's. They have a flow to them that the 3Der's don't. That is why Curtis is in demand to fly at different events, he has a flow to his performance that comes from the contest pilot in him to be perfect and it shows. I told myself that if I was going to get back into this game I was going to learn how to be a more controlled pilot, even with the 3D, instead of the pull back on the sticks and see which way it goes pilot. What helis are suited for the contest work, is it the Tempest, Vibe etc. Where do you find info directed towards the contest type flying and equipment setup. Is there any clubs or pilots in the Piedmont area of North Caolina that can help with this. Thanks Tim for the info you sent.
02-19-2008 01:01 PM
 
 
Salesmanheliboy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

The Vibe and Tempest can (and do) perform contest work just fine. I fly the Century Preditor and compete against Hirobo, Kyosho and just about anything else in the market place!

The real difference is in setup. We (most of the contest pilots) use a more softer feel then a traditional 3D configuration. This is accomplished with flybar ratios, radio setup, blade style, paddel airfoil and weight, head damping...

There is a great deal of information inside of RunRyder in the contest section that can really point you in a great direction. Most importantly, get to a few of the contests in the US and fly in the event. You may struggle a little but the learning experence (as well as the help you are likely to get) is very valuable.

Tim
02-19-2008 01:37 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
10X
Senior Heliman
Location: Salisbury N.C.

Thanks

I have several PM's with lots of information, this is a big help. I guess I need to get busy learning about the different equipment and set ups. Then I will need to spend the bucks to get it. Thats the hard part ($$$$). Thanks again
02-19-2008 02:14 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

In addition to Tim's event in Tennessee, there are several other events throughout the year. You can find the 2008 Contest Schedule at the link below.

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t406770p1/
02-19-2008 02:55 PM
 
 
Salesmanheliboy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

10X,

What equipment do you have now?

No need to go out and spend $$ when it is posiple to get started with some simple setup techniques.

Tim
02-19-2008 03:58 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
10X
Senior Heliman
Location: Salisbury N.C.

50 Size Mostly

I have Raptor 50's and Trex 50's, I have backed out of the 90 size due to the repair bill if something happens. That want be the case with the contest though, I don't think we will be trying piro flips or piro funnels which has cost me a small sum. I use to have an Imperio and sold it due to the style of flying I was doing, didn't want to put that ship in the dirt. It was one great flying machine or at least it was to me. I use a 9303 radio, 611, 601, 401 gyros, for the most part. Servos are 9256,9254,9252,8311,8900,8717 etc. I have a little of everything. I guess I could change the setting on the helis I have and use them for know, as long as I know what that may be. The only thought I have is that if I spend the money on the lower end helis is it money well spent, or is it better to go ahead with a heli that is somewhat designed for this type of thing. I don't know, I in an area that is all new to me, that's why I have come to this post. What do yall think.
02-19-2008 04:23 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

I say "Run what you brung". Properly maintained, your R50 will last you for many seasons.

I can tell you from experience that you'll need to watch your main shaft bearing blocks (since the bearings tend to waller out the molded-in bearing blocks in the frame... you may end up replacing frames a couple of times a season), and get rid of the stock plastic head block if you have it. It wears out enough within just a few gallons that it really doesn't keep the head centered correctly. If money is a concern, I'd buy just the TT aluminum head yoke, aluminum washout base, and some good quality blades.

The nice thing about the Raptor 50 is that it comes stock with a 1:1 Bell-Hiller mix ratio rotor head. There's not a whole lot in the way of adjustability on the stock R50 setup, but what you can do is run the stock black paddles, and experiment with flybar length.

The Raptor 50 is a fine little helicopter, and will be more than adequate for you to compete in Class 1 or 2 without breaking your bank. If you decide to keep in it for the long term, then you can start looking at higher-shelf birds. But for now, honesly, I say fly what you got and focus your energies on (a) becoming a better pilot, and (b) optimizing the hardware you have. It'll be an invaluable learning experience, and you won't have anywhere near the fuel bill that you would with a 90.

(BTW, If you want to see diagrams of the Class 1 maneuvers, I have them in my gallery. Credit goes to Erich Freymann.)
02-19-2008 04:42 PM
 
 
10X
Senior Heliman
Location: Salisbury N.C.

Let me follow up on the above

I have played around with IMAC several years back and have a few friends that are into it big. We spent most of the time flying the Imac routine and I saw how much time they spent on tuning and equipment. I'm just trying not to spend dollars now, just to turn around and spend even more dollars later for something that could of been taken care of from the start. I'm not against buying a Vibe or X-cell or whatever and putting quality equipment in it, but what else has to be done to get it to the level it needs to be. IMAC and the big planes never really caught my attention like the helis have. Helis are just one of the 7 wonders to me and it never ends with them. When your flying them there is so much to learn and so much going on that it would take the better part of a lifetime to learn it all.
02-19-2008 04:51 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but it sounds like you're asking "Once I have good hardware, what else do I need to do?" If that's your question, then I can only give you my take on it. The veterans here will no doubt have considerable valuable information to add.

From where I sit, good hardware is just one of the three facets you need to concentrate on. The second is optimizing setup, and the third is skill building.

What "percentage of importance" each of those carries is up to debate, but I tend to think that it's 50% pilot, 25% setup, and 25% machine (I'm sure others will have different opinions). You can (and will) spend a lifetime learning the finer points of setup optimization, so it's not like you'll ever "get there" with regard to that.

From my viewpoint, the best course of action at your/my level is to have quality accessories, keep your machine well-maintained, and fly the snot out of it. Until you're at the point where that last 5% is making or breaking you, there's way more improvement to be made in the pilot than there is in the machine.

Just one man's opinion.
02-19-2008 05:04 PM
 
 
10X
Senior Heliman
Location: Salisbury N.C.

To RCHelicopter

I have a NIB Rap 50 SE, if I was to use it would it be better to have a complete metal head, maybe one with adjustment or not. Also would CCPM be better than the Raptor stlye Coll. pitch. The Trex to me would be harder to calm done due to the style head. It handles real quick compared to the Rap. I guess if you know what your doing it might not be. Why would you need to rework the frames during the year,does contest flying put that much stress on them? I do like the advantage of the 50 over the 90 as far as the fuel goes. I tell you what, anyone out there that has a suggestion on building a Rap 50 for contest flying from the ground up, Head, Gyro, Servos, Blades, Tail Blades etc. let me know what you think. Also any suggestion on a 90 size contest ship, that way I can have some ideas to run with.


Thanks again.
02-19-2008 05:09 PM
 
 
ErichF
Key Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

Get a Hirobo EVO 90, set it up stock with "high stability" settings (in the manual), and go fly.

Best bird to get into contest flying from scratch from an economical and mechanical approach.

There are numerous upgade paths to take as certain items wear out, and the head is very adjustable.

Use a good gyro, with the new BLS251 tail servo, and a good high-torque collective servo.

Have fun, and see you out there.


PS, I'm a former IMACer myself...know where you came from.

Team Kyosho Regional Field Representative
02-19-2008 05:22 PM
 
 
Salesmanheliboy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN

Dear 10X,

I am an expert in my opinion, so hear it is:

First of all, last years “Music City” Class I helicopter champion was one using a Raptor 50. That pilot is traditionally a 3D pilot but added some flybar weights and softened out his cyclic and set up a mild pitch curve for simple aerobatics.

This is your first year out in the helicopter contest circuit so have some fun with what you have! The Class I maneuvers offer a good challenge for most any new competitor and can be adequately performed with a 50 size machine with ease.

See if you like it before you throw any additional monies at it (there will be plenty of opportunity to do that later!). Spend your 2008 monies on fuel and try out the maneuvers and join us at some events.

Tim
02-19-2008 05:32 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Quote 
I have a NIB Rap 50 SE, if I was to use it would it be better to have a complete metal head, maybe one with adjustment or not.

Nope. Metal yoke ('cause the stock one wears out too fast), metal washout base, and that's it. Not saying you can't, I'm just saying you don't have to.

Quote 
Also would CCPM be better than the Raptor stlye Coll. pitch.

Oh heavens no. You have one of the most interaction-free control systems around. Why queer it with that abomination called CCPM?

(Ask me what I think about CCPM some day. Bring popcorn.)

Quote 
Why would you need to rework the frames during the year,does contest flying put that much stress on them?

It's not that, it's just that the bearing block design (integrated into the frames) isn't that sturdy. What happens is, fore-aft cyclic inputs end up widening the bearing seats, so the main shaft ends up wobbling slightly back and forth. It's easy to diagnose... just grab your frames with one hand, and your rotor head with the other. Try to push the main shaft along the long axis of the heli. if you hear a slight clicking sound, your bearing seats are worn out. Unfortunately, because of the way the R50 frames are designed, the only cure (aside from patchwork) is to replace the frames.

Honestly, run what you brung. There's nothing wrong with the hardware you have, and it will serve you fine for where you are. I really woulnd't spend any money on anything other than basic maintenance and fuel fuel fuel.
02-19-2008 06:11 PM
 
 
10X
Senior Heliman
Location: Salisbury N.C.

OK RCHelicopter

When you get a chance and some time I want to hear about CCPM, because that seems to be the rave now. Everybody that comes out with a new kit says it has the Great CCPM. Is this a 3D thing, that makes everyone talk about CCPM.
02-19-2008 06:25 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

I've learned one nearly immutable truth in life... never underestimate the power of lemming behavior.

That nearly every helicopter you see is built with CCPM is not an indication that CCPM is the best way to build a control system. It's kind of like the old saying "Spread a lie long enough, and people will eventually think it's the truth."

I just don't have the strength to get into it right now.
02-19-2008 06:29 PM
 
 
Dr.Ben
Elite Veteran
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Since the late 80's whe I started competing, it has always been most apparent to me that it isn't WHAT a newcomer shows up at their first event with with respect to model choice but, rather HOW that model is prepared that determines how well they will do. To this end let me echo once again to run what you brung BUT note the below:


Engine: They are all pretty good today, but they can ALL be royally effed up with misadjusted carbs (mostly too lean), exhaust systems that are in no way designed to allow the motor to run smoothly at any rpm remotely associated with one you'd care to hover at or be close to, and even something as simple as bad bearings. So, take the time to tune your engine to run well. Suggestions for exhaust systems are there for the asking.

Servos: Tons of good servos out there, and most guys will get good ones. The ball gets dropped with linkages that are so tight and stiff that the poor servo doesn't have a prayer of centering. Get the mechanical set up correct, get the linkages smooth, and the model will fly a ton better.

Radio: A good set up can be had for not a lot of money. I've seen the finest radios in the world with more !@#$$ programmed into them to correct for lousy set up than I care to remember. An MZ may be better than a DX7, but any of the top pilots can take that DX7 with a good set up and whip a crappy-ly set up model driven by misprogrammed MZ.

Blades: Ask BEFORE you buy. Some 3D blade designs just don't play well at all for FAI style contest work. Leave the Radix Stick Bangers at home<g>.


I can double damn guarantee you that if you come to one event and just sit and listen and watch (and please do participate as well), you come home with more knowledge and insight than you ever could have fathomed.

Ben Minor
02-19-2008 06:37 PM
 
 
10X
Senior Heliman
Location: Salisbury N.C.

Next Contest

Where is the next contest going to be, has the season started yet.
02-19-2008 07:23 PM
 
 
Bond007
Senior Heliman
Location: Leicestershire UK

My 5 cents !

I flew my first ever comp at the UK nationals

I agree with the above. Go along and have a go with what you have. I used a Hirobo Sceadu EVO 50. Nerves got the best of me and I can honestly say it's some of the worst flying I have ever done. Even if I had gone along with a top notch FAI style 90 ship, it wouldn't have made any difference to the state of my nerves. You have to be able to fly well and be relaxed on the 'center stage' so to speak. There was a guy (sorry forgot his name) who flew a TREX 600 and came 4th in the Sportsmans, on his first attempt. He had won an AMA comp and he looked and flew in a relaxed manner, and it really showed. He hadn't even practised any schedules.

Get some flags and put them down as per the contest layout. Practise the hovering manouvers, from both sides, so you don't get handed. Practise the aerobatics, again from left and right, and concentrate on positioning them central and flying smoothly. Any good pilot can loop and roll, but can you loop and roll so the model is inverted exactly on the center line, every time ?

Far better to spend any money at this stage on fuel and burn as much as you can before your first comp.

The advice and feedback you'll get from the judges and other competitors is invaluable. I learnt so much from that weekend, and have made some new friends, who also happen to be some of the top UK FAI pilots I have been in regular contact with them asking advice and gleaning as much info as I can, before this years events.

Good luck, and most of all, do it for the enjyoment and to improve yourself. It has given me something to aim for, and I hope to steadily improve throughout this year.

Sean

Blitz Avro, Trex 500
02-19-2008 07:31 PM
 
 
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