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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Is a 90 more dangerous than a 50.

trexian
Heliman
Location: Nottingham, UK

My club is introducing a rule that you can only fly a 90 if you have a BMFA “B” certificate.
As I understand it the head speed of the 90 is lower than that of a 50 and the 90 size helicopter is more stable. There are plenty of people that can fly very well but have not taken there B test. So my question is are 90 size helicopters more dangerous than a 50 and why.

02-17-2008 08:41 AM

orlee008
Veteran
Location: Miami, FL USA

who told you the headspeed of a 90 is less than a 50's?

if a 50 is running a 2000 head speed and a 90 is running a 2000 head speed whats the difference?

your flying style determins what head speed you need to run... sport flying = 1800 head speed, aggressive 3D flying = 2000-2200 etc...

there is more inertia in a 90 machine than a 50 for obvious reasons but you could hurt someone with either machine just the same way...

if they require a certificate and you fly 90's then get it or find another club. as for myself, i havent heard of this "required" certificate

orlee

Flying in Miami, FL (Kendall Area)

02-17-2008 03:48 PM

trexian
Heliman
Location: Nottingham, UK

is a 90 more dangerous than a 50

Hi thanks for the reply

I do not as yet fly a 90 size but the people that i know with 90's say they run there head speed lower, but that is not the issue. I agree with you that they will both do the same amount of damage if it hit you.

The certification is a British thing

Thanks Ian

02-17-2008 06:18 PM

dazzaster
Veteran
Location: right next door to hell

that sounds bizar its only a size thing but there not a great difrence in the size in fact larger helicopter tend to be a lot more stable than the 50 size . i would understand if it was something like a large gasser like a vario but still again there more stable.
would it make a diffrenc then if you placed a 90 size engine in your 50 size heli?
but then if its club rule it must be there for a reason and best to go along wiht it, if it is considered a silly rule by the majority of the club then you could always aproach the chairmen and asked if it could be changed or voted on.

my wife is going to leave me for my best mate if i keep flying helis!.......shame ill miss him

02-17-2008 07:15 PM

HOMEPAGE

wlfk
Veteran
Location: uk

Would you rather be hit by a fullsize helicopter rotor, with a headspeed of 120rpm (chinook) and tip speed of 250mph, or that of a T-Rex 450 - 3500rpm; tip speed of 280mph?

A bigger helicopter has got to be more dangerous. Whether a .50 versus .90 is the most sensible cuttoff, I'm not sure.

K

A bit like a kite, but 500 times more expensive

02-17-2008 09:06 PM

fritzthecat
Key Veteran
Location: New Orleans

They are more dangerous because of greater kinetic energy in the blades and greater mass of the heli at impact.

They are less dangerous because 90 size helis are usually not flown by beginners, only more experienced pilots.

If your club allows aircraft, tell them that the rule for helis is ok as long as all aircraft pilots get the 'B' certificate to fly planes with engines of 60 size or larger.

Fritz

http://www.fritzthecat.info
'Send Money, Women and Guns!'

02-18-2008 08:25 AM

HOMEPAGE

SkateFreak
Key Veteran
Location: Cambs UK/Luton

fritz,
thats a very good point...

The 90 size helis have far more punch and would do more damage than a 50, but the same can be said for a plane with a 50 size engine vs a plane with a 90...

Speak to the chairman and if they insist on enforcing this rule i would suggest you tell them it would then be descriminatory if they didnt enforce simular rules on planes

The one word that will get you almost anywhere in this country...

Descrimination heh.

I know what its like to be in a club and have plankers enforce rediculous rules upon helicopter pilots just because we not *one of them*... and are treated as second rate members...

Best regards

-Jvr

02-18-2008 01:49 PM

dazzaster
Veteran
Location: right next door to hell

if it because of plank flyer it is easy to see there point of view as a plank only has one dangerouse area and thats the spinning bit at the front , also planks when flying can normally only go forward , a heli on the other hand as two danger area the main rotor and the tail and considering the main rota cover the whole helicopter when running its considerd more of a danger. as for the size issue yes theres a big diffrence between a 50 and a full size but between a 50 and 90 theres not much, ok there more forcers but put thoese forces at wofk and they do the same damgage.
for instance take both size helis they will both take your arm off in an accidenet just one wil do it more cleanly and quickly than the other the results still end up the same

my wife is going to leave me for my best mate if i keep flying helis!.......shame ill miss him

02-18-2008 02:26 PM

HOMEPAGE

colsy
Elite Veteran
Location: Cambridge, UK

All helis are potentially dangerous in the wrong hand's, and probably more so than fixed wing.

BMFA 'B' certificate should be the minimum. IMO.

Let's face it the 'B' cert isnt exactly difficult, and for those that say they are nervous is rubbish, as flying in front of a large 'mixed discipline' group is more intimidating.

col.

Only Quote From Experience.

02-18-2008 02:34 PM

HOMEPAGE

erichevy
Senior Heliman
Location: Zevenhoven The Netherlands

Do you get hurt more or less when hitting a wall from 100 miles an hour or 120 miles an hour?

It should not make any difference!
Both type of heli's are dangerous enough.
It gives me a false feeling that flying a 50 is not soo dangerous.

Eric.

Don't wan't to show my geoduck in public.

02-20-2008 02:50 PM

alchemist
Senior Heliman
Location: London,UK

Quote

Is a 90 more dangerous than a 50.

My club is introducing a rule that you can only fly a 90 if you have a BMFA “B” certificate.
As I understand it the head speed of the 90 is lower than that of a 50 and the 90 size helicopter is more stable. There are plenty of people that can fly very well but have not taken there B test. So my question is are 90 size helicopters more dangerous than a 50 and why.

It's not a matter of whether the 50 or 90 is more dangerous but rather a matter of which will splatter more human body contents on impact.

Both are equally dangerous in the wrong hands

To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction

02-20-2008 08:31 PM

shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

I don't know about any more dangerous, but initially they can be more intimidating. I went from flying 50 size birds to the gasser that I have now. I don't think the blades spinning is any less dangerous, but the inertia of flying manuvers was quite a bit different. It takes more planning and a little more airspace to do things with the gasser. I imagine that a 90 would be close to the same thing because it is heavier than the 50, although it has much more power than the 50 or the gasser.

Gas is Great
Quick OD 26

02-20-2008 08:54 PM

wlfk
Veteran
Location: uk

Quote
if it because of plank flyer it is easy to see there point of view as a plank only has one dangerouse area and thats the spinning bit at the front

Which, according to simple mathematics, reduces the risks by a factor of 6 - the plane could be going forward, sideways (x2), backwards, up or down but it's only dangerous if it's moving forwards

(making fun of the aircraft-are-safe-helis-are-dangerous crowd, not the OP)

K

A bit like a kite, but 500 times more expensive

02-20-2008 09:49 PM

Mighty Mouse
Heliman
Location: Picayune, MS

Sounds like there is a hidden agenda somewhere.....

02-26-2008 07:53 PM

bosshoss
Senior Heliman
Location: Chicago, IL

Mea Culpa

I am guilty of the "Planker makes rules for Shankers" scenario.

I am the president of our club near O'hare Airport. When I was Safety Officer the older guys asked me to write a set of restrictive rules for the Shankers. Being a Planker, I thought "OK, they are more dangerous than planes, anyways."

So ,we instituted, no hovering over the runway(common sense), no 3D closer than 50ft from the flight line(common sense), starting only on the plank benches(not the picnic tables), hover practice only on the heli pad, and not much else.

You would have thought it was the end of the world. Just because it came from a planker, not a shanker.

Discrimination is often just perceived, when coming from the "other" side...whatever side you are not on.

I fly heli's now , and I still don't see a problem with these rules.

I am more afraid of the flyer than the aircraft. Some guys are more dangerous with a .40 glow trainer plank , than the veteran heli pilot with a .90 Raptor. It is the CARELESS Pilot that scares me...

Someone who cobbles their aircraft together with spit balls, popsicle sticks, and baling wire....I am afraid of that pilot. Someone whos says...""ahhh, that 3001 servo can work my collective"..that pilot scares me. A pilot who twists his battery wires together , that scares me, ...etc, etc, etc...

Rules are to weed out the careless pilots who take chances, wether it is with poorly chosen equipment, or dumb thumbs, or at least a lack of understanding the risks of our hobby.

Whatever safety rules your club adopts, I hope you can cope with them, in a perfect world it would cover all disciplines........safe or as unsafe as they are perceived to be.

02-27-2008 08:28 PM

HOMEPAGE

whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

"Someone who cobbles their aircraft together with spit balls, popsicle sticks, and baling wire....I am afraid of that pilot. Someone whos says...""ahhh, that 3001 servo can work my collective"..that pilot scares me. A pilot who twists his battery wires together , that scares me, ...etc, etc, etc..."

Damn Boss, Why are you picking on me?

Mike

02-27-2008 08:51 PM

bosshoss
Senior Heliman
Location: Chicago, IL

LOL.

Whirly,

I know your level of perfectionism.....

I got three words.....Old Man Billy....

Run!!!!.....Billy is taking off!!!.........

02-28-2008 02:51 AM

HOMEPAGE

whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

LOL, when I read it I was thinking Billy too.

Mike

02-28-2008 03:08 AM

Parsifal
Veteran
Location: Singapore

Its been a long while since i did mine, so i forget what the manuvers were, but they are relatively basic(relatively speaking) and in my opinion, is perfectly acceptable as a requirement to fly a 90 sized machine.

The energy carried by a 90 hitting you at speed i imagine would be considerably greater than that of a plastic fantastic 50 hitting you at speed.

Just my opinion, but i do not really think a 90 regardless of its stability and lower headspeed and so on, (If setup correctly mind you) should be flown by a beginner, and a B cert is not that far into heli flying IMHO.

Regards,

PArs

04-17-2008 10:44 AM

HOMEPAGE

TachyonDriver
Senior Heliman
Location: Chipping, Lancs, UK

What happened to the A certificate? Did that not count for anything at the club?

Ask the chairman/committee what certs are in place for the planks, then prove to them that helis fly circuits too

Tach.

Little Spinning Bundle of Joy®

04-18-2008 12:16 AM

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