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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > UK F3C scoring weird.
 
 
kobalt12
New Heliman
Location: UK - Manchester

I was reading the latest issue of the MHW,

and i ususally go to the comp section.. as F3C is something i am interested in

I read with interest the write up on the last event, but one thing that baffles me beyond comprehension,

is how a pilot can win 2 rounds out of 3 clearly and still end up second?

The battle between Steve and Dave Fisher was brilliant all through the year and i was watching with interest...

In the last comp of the season Dave won 2 rounds out of the 3 clearly and was beaten in the last round... and then came second over all despite winning 2 rounds, that does not make sense to me...

Has the scoring changed for 2008 ? cos it seems unfair system

Stu
02-14-2008 09:24 AM
 
 
steviewonder33
Senior Heliman
Location: London, England

Stu

We use the FAI scoring system as law!

The system that we have currently uses an average and was designed for WC use, ie 2 flightlines with lots of pilots!

When it is used in domestic comps it can produce strange results which can help some and hinder others.....

It worked in Dave's favor last year and in my favor at this event.

In this event Dave won the 1st 2 rounds by a small margin and I won the last by a large margin. Other factors come into the scoring system such as other pilots flying well or badly, hence the up and down average scores, ie if sombody does well and everybody else does badly they will get a huge average score, but if everybody is doing ok there average score will come down, even if they win the round.

At this years nationals I got my lowest average score with the biggest Judges score! This is the problem with the current scoring system.

Its just the way the cookie crumbles.

It has been agreed by most nations that it is a stupid system that is not clear to the pilots until the final results have been published, so in the UK we are going to revert back to the old 1000point system for the 2008 season.

Steve Roberts

Team JR, Motors & Rotors, SAB, Bekra Fuel, ThunderPower Batteries
02-14-2008 11:36 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Bond007
Senior Heliman
Location: Leicestershire UK

Steve

Is this being adopted for the Sportsmans as well ?

Blitz Avro, Trex 500
02-14-2008 11:50 AM
 
 
steviewonder33
Senior Heliman
Location: London, England

Sean

As far as I know.

This is the system that we have always used up untill that last rule change.

I have a feeling that this will be put forward in the next CIAM meeting!!

Steve

Team JR, Motors & Rotors, SAB, Bekra Fuel, ThunderPower Batteries
02-14-2008 03:46 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
pchristy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nr London, England

Steve,

I've just received the CIAM agenda, and they're going back to normalising to 1000...........

--
Pete
02-14-2008 04:32 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Is this "weird" system the same one that was switched to midway through the '07 WC's, which knocked our Dwight Shilling out of the finals?
02-14-2008 04:49 PM
 
 
pchristy
Senior Heliman
Location: Nr London, England

I wasn't at the WCs this year, but my understanding is that they were using the "weird" system until pilots started objecting, and then changed to something else (not sure what - wasn't there!), and that was the point at which Dwight got bumped.

Somebody who attended probably has more details.

The problem lies in the fact that the original rules were never intended to cover two flightlines, and tweaking them resulted in a "round" being spread over two days. If the weather changed overnight, it had a dramatic effect on the scores part way through a round!

The "weird" system was an attempt to compensate for this.

Unfortunately, it introduced a load more anomalies!

It was done with the best of intentions, but that's what the road to hell is paved with........!!!

--
Pete
02-14-2008 05:32 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Pete (or anyone, really),

Maybe you can shed some light on a question for me. A friend and I were discussing this the other day, and neither one of us had a good answer.

I understand what normalizing is and I understand how to do it (in concept, at least). What I don't understand is, why are scores normalized? Why not just keep raw scores all the way through the prelim's and go from there? It seems like most of the scoring controversies I've read/heard have been related to when/how scores are normalized.

Why not just eliminate normalizing altogether? If the reason is "fairness", would it still be fair if it were applied uniformly? (In other words, is "fairness" an argument if everyone is under the same rule?)
02-14-2008 05:56 PM
 
 
kobalt12
New Heliman
Location: UK - Manchester

Thanks for the explanations Steve and Pete

It will be interesting to watch this year with everything going back to the way it was in 2006.

I am thinking of having a go at the Sportsmans this year, i will try the A schedule, or as the magazine said the easier one!

as i have been practicing with my Eagle, it is very stable and good in acrobatics, so hopefully i will compete

I have never done it before so it will be interesting to put some faces to the names on here.

Stu
02-14-2008 09:58 PM
 
 
steviewonder33
Senior Heliman
Location: London, England

Stu

Come along and have a go. Everyone had to start somewhere.

You will learn more from flying in one contest than you will just practicing at the local patch.

RC Helicopter Guy,

We have discussed this as a possible route in the UK. The only problem that we have with using just 'Raw' scores is that if the judges are not totally consistant on every round, then one pilot may get an unfair score (ie the first huy up may get a huge score, or bad!). This is where normalising sorts out the mistakes.

Steve Roberts

Team JR, Motors & Rotors, SAB, Bekra Fuel, ThunderPower Batteries
02-15-2008 09:07 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Hi Steve,

That's what I don't understand. If one guy gets a "bad round", how does normalizing make any difference? His normalized score is still going to be reflective of his "bad" raw score.

In essence, isn't normalizing similar to "grading on a curve" in school? I don't understand how normalizing does anything except open up room for controversy.
02-15-2008 12:44 PM
 
 
RotarSoft
Veteran
Location: London UK

RCHelicopterGuy,

The normalization is used to try and remove variances from round to round.

An example:

Day 1) Flat calm, beautiful sunny skies. Most pilots raw scores over 300.

Day 2) Windy, overcast. Most pilots raw scores below 200.

If we didn't normalize the results then Day 2 will be a waste of time. If you had a problem on Day 1 you would have no chance of making up for it on Day 2. Normalization means that results from round to round and day to day are directly comparable without external influences (weather) affecting the results.

Cheers

Mark
02-15-2008 01:58 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Mark,

I follow what you're saying (I think). One question, though... if everyone flew on the same Day 2 that you described, how would those scores be a waste of time?

Not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand how the "waste of time" or "fairness" rationale is remedied by normalization. If everyone is subject to the same conditions on the same day, then isn't normalizing kind of an unnecessary step that only opens up potential for problems?
02-15-2008 03:23 PM
 
 
RotarSoft
Veteran
Location: London UK

RCHelicopterGuy,

At an average F3C event you fly 3 rounds and drop your lowest scoring round (lowest normalized). Therefore if the weather outlook was fine on 2 days and windy on 1 day then nobody would bother flying on the windy day because the raw scores would be so much lower than the other 2 days. The normalization is there as a leveler so that everybody is directly compared to the best pilot on the day. The theory is that external factors (judges having an off day... bad weather) are removed and the pilots are directly compared against each other. The best pilot of the day/round always getting 1000 points.

For example. If you have an engine problem on the 1st Round/Day and don't get to fly then you can still make it up in the next 2 rounds no matter what the weather because the scores are normalized. If we didn't normalize the scores and the next days weather looked awful then you might as well pack your bags and go home because your not going to be able to carry through the high raw scores everybody else has from Round 1.

Cheers

Mark
02-15-2008 04:30 PM
 
 
RCHelicopterGuy
Veteran
Location: Michigan

Mark,

That makes sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. Believe it or not, you're the first guy that has been able to clarify it for me. Maybe I'm just slow.
02-15-2008 04:33 PM
 
 
RotarSoft
Veteran
Location: London UK

RCHelicopterGuy,

No worries!

One of the reasons people wanted to drop the 1000 normalization route was because occasionally you had an instance where on a rough weather day there would be one lucky pilot who got to fly in almost perfect conditions... a lull in the otherwise awful weather. This meant he got 1000 points and everybody else was much further away from him.

The idea of the normalization to 500 or the average pilots score was hoping to alleviate this problem. Which it did to an extent; but also brought in many more serious problems.

After lots of head scratching people have come to the conclusion that the old 1000 point system is really as good as we are going to get and that there is no way Model Helicopter pilots are going to beat mother nature

Cheers

Mark
02-15-2008 04:42 PM
 
 
MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK,Gravesend, Kent

i also would like to say thanks for explaining what seemed a confusing scoring system..

I would also like to say Mark it is great to see you back in the British team, i think this year 2008 that along with yourself, Steve, and Dave, it is the strongest british team we have had for a long time,

i'd like to say all the best to all 3 of you and Daniel for 2008

Matt

I bought my Mother-in-law a chair for xmas, but she wouldn't plug it in
02-17-2008 12:20 AM
 
 
johnb
Key Veteran
Location: Guildford, Surrey UK

I think another point to make is that pilots may not all fly the same flight line on the same day - this gets confusing so bear with me.

At the WC there are two flight lines, each with 5 judges. The pilots are split into two groups.

On day 1 group A fly round 1 on flightline A whilst group B are flying round 2 on flight line B. On day 2, group A fly round 2 on line B, whilst group B are flying round 1 on line A so it's not until the end of the second day when all competitors have flown in front of all the judges can ranking start to be worked out.

The point is that an one round spans two days - so normalisation further helps or...or is supposed to!

jb.
02-19-2008 06:59 PM
 
 
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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > UK F3C scoring weird.
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