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Revolution Models . CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Tuned Pipe on Gassers any feedback?
 
 
Shiro Muji
Senior Heliman
Location: Japan

question please: why is it that after the engine warmed up (with a low rpm - 1600-1700) it suddenly goes to up 1800-1900 rotor rpm and maintains on the rotor rpm? is it normal to those engine with a pipe and without a governor?

Maxum with Hanson 3D Max, Maxum Nitro, Maxum 30.5cc modified engine, RH Generator, Sceadu .50Hyper
07-14-2008 01:15 PM
 
 
Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

yea

This is a normal reaction of the pipe. The harmonics 'pull' the engine rpm up. Temps come up and the engine is warm and runs better as well.

-Cody

All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts
07-14-2008 02:44 PM
 
 
Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Its called getting up on the pipe
07-14-2008 03:52 PM
 
 
rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

Its exactly what I hated with a pipe

The engine INSISTS on running on its own specific rpm no matter how you fiddle with the throttle curves and such. You take off and everything is cool, fly around and all of a sudden the damn thing is accelerating and stabalizing at a higher rpm. But what if I don't want that rpm to fly at all the time? Well...then I don't want the pipe is the answer...

-=>Raja.

1005 Xcell Gas, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
Spectra-g, BHH G26 3D Plus, Jewel Generator
07-14-2008 04:00 PM
 
 
Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

yea

Gearing and rpm should be considered to fit your flying style for the pipe. Its is not meant to operate at a lower rpm outside of the tuned part.


-Cody

All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts
07-14-2008 05:21 PM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
You take off and everything is cool, fly around and all of a sudden the damn thing is accelerating and stabalizing at a higher rpm.

Better suited for a plank or a boat that has a fixed pitch prop and runs wide open all the time.

Ace
What could be more fun?
07-14-2008 05:46 PM
 
 
Shiro Muji
Senior Heliman
Location: Japan

Thanks for all the replies.

Follow-up question please. How can I solve this going up thing with the pipe without removing the pipe? should I tune my engine to what the pipe wants or will the governor solve this problem?

Maxum with Hanson 3D Max, Maxum Nitro, Maxum 30.5cc modified engine, RH Generator, Sceadu .50Hyper
07-15-2008 01:23 AM
 
 
ccm15
Senior Heliman
Location: Lake Ariel, PA

I am also one not to use a pipe. I want the engine to respond to me not hang on the pipe. Save it for an airplane it's so much less of a hassle.

One mile of road will take you one mile. One mile of runway will take you anywhere in the world.
07-15-2008 01:35 AM
 
 
Toadster25
Veteran
Location: Iowa

I'm not a fan of a pipe either but to me it makes perfect sence to use one on a helicopter. You want your engine to stay at one set speed/rotor rpm don't you? Why can't they make one that works? I'm guessing that there are so many variables to it that it's just not worth all the hassle. I thought you should be able to change the length of the coupler to change the "on the pipe" rpm.
07-15-2008 04:46 AM
 
 
Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

hmm

I have talked with Al at TRM at one time and while I would have enjoyed a tuned pipe more so for the 26 the current tuned is more so for a modded 231. As I had said at one time add more volume either by cutting a longer section from header to pipe or if you have a hose slide syle add more volume by sliding or cutting a new section. From what I have read this is the only real adjustment that can be made aside from trully changing the pipe physically.

The hanson pipe is not a low rpm pipe as we know.

TRM made a comment that its costlly to do this and there was not 'enough ' interest to create a pipe especilly with material cost high.

Other options are a larger motor or goto electric...


-Cody

All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts
07-15-2008 02:20 PM
 
 
Shiro Muji
Senior Heliman
Location: Japan

Thanks Cody. I am not a fan of electric maybe I will leave is as it is for now. anyway I am enjoying it. maybe later I will try the 231 modified to see any difference.

Maxum with Hanson 3D Max, Maxum Nitro, Maxum 30.5cc modified engine, RH Generator, Sceadu .50Hyper
07-15-2008 03:23 PM
 
 
AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

Quote 
You want your engine to stay at one set speed/rotor rpm don't you?

Yes constant RPM but not constant torque. That's why a tuned pipe doesn't work in a helicopter application unless it is a drag race running peddle to the metal. Putting a tuned pipe on narrows down the power band taking away all the advantage of the gasser as we know it. A tuned pipe has a better chance of working in an AP application where the load changes are not so sudden and varied.

Ace
What could be more fun?
07-15-2008 05:53 PM
 
 
hawkeye4077
Senior Heliman
Location: Planet earth

Quote 
As I had said at one time add more volume either by cutting a longer section from header to pipe or if you have a hose slide syle add more volume by sliding or cutting a new section. From what I have read this is the only real adjustment that can be made aside from trully changing the pipe physically.

interesting. can't we make these changes in flight? if we use an adjustable hose slide controlled by a servo?

Gerard D.
07-15-2008 07:40 PM
 
 
Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

hmm

Its a trade off. You gain an enourmous amount of HP and yes even some in torque on the pipe. Ap applications May work, but if you look how Tuned pipes make power or resonance noise of the pipe vibrating pulling the pulse out. Noise on a ap ship in which your are shooting video or camera may work with... I guess I would be worried about vibrations on a high frequency level passing to the equipment rendering shootings possiblly unusable.

There are too many gears ratios and motors/ blade combos to make it work for all of us. Right now the best use is a 231 with hanson tuned pipe. The 26puh hanson works but I think it only produced a small % more torque and HP compared to a correclly done 231 pipe combo.

A dyno would be nice to verify this with numbers but its not really availible that I 'know' of and someone could bias the numbers as they can be setup many ways.


-Cody

All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts
07-15-2008 08:36 PM
 
 
Shiro Muji
Senior Heliman
Location: Japan

What would be the possible effect to the engine and rotor rpm if I changed the gear ratio from 7 something to 8 something like that of nitro gear ratio? or should I need to use a lower gear ratio to lower the engine rpm but increase the rotor rpm.

Maxum with Hanson 3D Max, Maxum Nitro, Maxum 30.5cc modified engine, RH Generator, Sceadu .50Hyper
07-16-2008 11:44 AM
 
 
Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

hmm

From what I have read and seen the engine 'wants' load on the disk. You might need as wide cord blade as you can run like Radix. The only concern then would be the vibs that several including myself have seen in the high frequency area. Since you are running the maxum with a advertised vibration reducing frame it would be a super test for you and everyone to see. Especially with a 30cc engine.

If I remember you where not running the hanson pipe and was the quick? If this is correct I would add more volume like 3/4" more in the tube to the pipe. This should help a lot. Sounds like your engine races a lot higher than mine ever did? I added 1/2". There is a calculation I will look for at work for resonance of the pipe I went off of. I will grab it from work. It gives a rough amount to add to get the desired rpm.




-Cody

All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts
07-16-2008 03:27 PM
 
 
j.8
Senior Heliman
Location: Denmark

Hi

Perhaps you can use this equation ?



Source: "verry old" Vario Catalog

Regards Bo
07-16-2008 04:19 PM
 
 
shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

I personally do not like a tuned pipe on my gasser. I tried one, but I don't like how it "gets on the pipe" and doesn't have the wide range of power or torque like it does with a muffler. Also IMHO makes tuning a bit more fussy.

I loved tuned pipes on my nitros, but I was running low nitro and it is the only way to get the power out of the engines without the nitro content.

I'm currently running a Zimmerman muffler on my G26, and I couldn't imagine needing any more power than my setup delivers, but I'm not trying to do stick banging 3d with it.

Gas is Great
QWW Field Rep
07-16-2008 04:32 PM
 
 
C.A.P.
Senior Heliman
Location: custer park IL.

A little infor for the NEWBEE, on 2 cycle motors with tune pipes. As everyone know that has this motor. The oil,fuel mix is what lub's the motor bearings. A tune pipe is made in a way that the intake of the pipe is larger then the exhaust. That causes a restriction. This is done to build up presure in the pipe itself. That presure is then pushed back into the motor, Why is that done??, Is what a lot of people do not understand. So I',ll start with the carb. It works like any carb. It work on the fuel being suck into the motor and at the same time mixing the the air, That's when the needle come into play by allowing more or less fuel to mix with the air. The amount of air is let in by the intake buterfly valve (throttle) The fuel is pumped into the carb by a built in pump that uses a pulse developed by the engine it self. Then fuel is sucked into the engine. It goes under the bottom of the piston, as it is moving up building presure (compression) to fire when the spark plup is fired. This upward motion causes a vacuum, by the time it hits the intake manifold port that causes the fuel to be drawn into the engine. (Into the lower crank case). After the engine fires the piston starts to come down closing off the the intake manifold. at this point the downward motion of the piston starts to build presure in the lower crank case. (this is when the pulse for the carb is made. on the way down it pushes air into the carb through the little hole under the intake manifold port. and on the way up it sucks it back out making a pulse). This builds until the piston reachs the intake ports in the cylinder walls. When that happens the presure pushs the fuel and air mix into the upper combustion chamber to fire. Then the piston starts up again. To start the compression cycle again. When it fires the piston comes down . Until it hits the exhaust port and for at least half the port, the spent fuel and air leaves the cyinder. The second half is when the intaken ports( the are four ports in the cyinder on these engine) are reached. By that time the spent fuel and air have gone. And the new fuel and air mix is push into the upper cylinder again, When the piston starts up air is push back down the intake ports and out exhaust port. When air is pushed down the intake port, it creats more presure in lower crank case. a tuned pipe creates even more presure here causing the new mix to be pushed in the cylinder even harder. And the cycle just keeps going over and over. What the tune pipe does is restrict the exhaust a little to a lot depending on the pipe. and causes more presure in the upper cylinder and the lower crank case. To push in more fuel air mix. You can say this is like a turbo affect. When you have your engine ported. It's like put in a bigger cam in it, like a car. Because there is no external machanics, (like a turbo to create compression on lower rpms). IT only happen at the last quarter of the rpm range of the engine, or even higher depending on how much restriction there is. This also creats more heat, RPMS & hp. To do it right with a turbo on a car. You must lower your compression in your cylinder to be able to reach it's mac rpm. because the turbo is increasing the creating more compression then the piston. And on most racing turbo's there what is called a exhaust gate this opens when there is to much presure in the cylinder. Not lowering it on a car will blow a head gasket OR bend a crank or rod because of to much compression. Or the lease make the engine run rough on top rpms. Because the ENGINE is starting to fight it self. I know both Al's raise the compression on their 3d mac's and I'v heard that running with a pipe you should not go over 12,500 rpm. because of the vibration. I could be wrong there, but that is what I have heard. Your engine will only have a short but stronger hp range on top end. That's why a pipe is not for everyone. Other then the looks. Take the pipe off and you again have more RPM range to fly with. and all of this happens a thousand time faster then a bink of an eye. I wrote this to further daze and confuse the newbee. I think I may even exceeded my goal!!!
07-16-2008 07:55 PM
 
 
Fixit
Key Veteran
Location: UK

Quote 
I wrote this to further daze and confuse the newbee. I think I may even exceeded my goal!!!
And all in one breath
07-16-2008 10:40 PM
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Tuned Pipe on Gassers any feedback?
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