RunRyder - Blade CP+ Metal Head + Plastic Blades = Erratic Flight

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e-E-Flite Blade CP CX 400-3D > Blade CP++ Metal Head + Plastic Blades = Erratic Flight

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

I've been flying my CP+ (with Bell Hiller upgrade) for a couple of months now and was looking for ways to stabilize it's flight characteristics a bit more. Adding plastic blades helped a great deal. So I thought adding the micro-heli brand all metal head might help as well. I've been working on the set-up for the last week and can't seem to get it dialed in. Once airborne, it has a pretty severe toilet bowl effect. I've been working with getting the blade tracking tuned up and have noticed that it tracks quite nicely up to about half throttle, then gets progressively worse with more throttle. I am pretty sure my swash is level, have put a new main shaft and spindle shaft on it and made sure the spindle shaft is shimmed properly, but still have this problem.

I am at a loss and am going to start replacing the metal parts with plastic one's to try and isolate the issue. The instructions that came with the metal parts were only assembly diagrams, no real instructions on set up. So I had a few questions for the group....

1. Any ideas on what else I should be looking at?
2. Any detailed instructions on set up for the metal head?
3. Does this set-up require different programming on the Tx? (I'm using a DX7 and wondered about mix ratio's, travel adjustments and the pitch curve for this set up)
4. Is anyone else using this set-up successfully?

The goal in trying this is to get the CP+ a bit more stable in flight. I am mostly practicing hovers with it and am hoping to tame it's erratic behavior. When hovering, it will sit quite nicely for several minutes, and then, with no input, just take off to one side or the other. No real consistency to it's actions, sometimes left or right or up or down. Nothing severe mind you, but it seems to have a mind of it's own, and yes, I am inside (no wind) when this happens.

I use the CP+ as a trainer for my Trex 450. I realize it will never fly as good as the 450, but I can get it going faster and cheaper after a crash and rely on the CP+ to learn new orientations prior to trying it on the 450. And yes, I use a sim as well.

Many thanks for any help you might be able to offer.

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

02-11-2008 03:42 PM

futuramille
Veteran
Location: SC USA

what motor and pinion? could be a low head speed issue...I've seen it with every bcp that used the stock motors (regardless of pinion) even though the head was setup and ballanced perfectly.

------------------------------
.....I need more batteries!!!

02-12-2008 01:46 AM

empty1
Heliman
Location: chicago,ill

My guess is nodding is this happens only when airborne. Behaves similar to a spinning top wobbling. This comes form the interaction of the spinning blades, the body, and gravity. Changing the dynamic with softer dampers will cure the problem. Changing head speed will reduce the effect too.

02-12-2008 02:48 AM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

Stock motor

I'm using the stock motor with whatever the stock pinion is for the BCP+. (9t or 10t? Not sure!)

I don't have a RPM gauge, but might be able to borrow one. What head speeds have you successfully used this set up? Anyone?

What do you mean by dampeners? Is this the same as fly bar weights?

BTW, I put the plastic head back on (BH upgrade) and it flies fine, though sloppy. I left the metal swash plate on it, and think it seems ok, though somewhat slower in response to input.

After a little searching, I have found the only threads that mention successfully using this metal set up also mention using a brushless set-up. Are you guys using the full metal head? What kind of blades? What about your motor?

Many thanks for the input.

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

02-12-2008 01:06 PM

futuramille
Veteran
Location: SC USA

There is extra mass in the metel heads. This equates to the need for more power to sustain required head speed. Everyone I know personally that bought the microheli head went brushless as well to get positive results. The stock motor is good for about 1800 rpm +/- 100. The microheli head "seats" itself best at 2200+. At 2500 it is superb. Above (2300+) the tail gives in and requires upgrades to hold predictably.

Upgrading to a brushless 370 main with 9t pinion will give you the headspeed needed.

------------------------------
.....I need more batteries!!!

02-12-2008 07:42 PM

empty1
Heliman
Location: chicago,ill

http://www.helihobby.com/html/helicopter_dampening.html

Easier then trying to explain. Thou headspeed will also cure the problem. Just depends on what you are looking for.

02-14-2008 01:29 AM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

Great Link

Thanks Empty1, I hadn't seen this site. Lots of article and great info!!! I'll check on my dampening

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

02-14-2008 02:02 PM

itsjojo
Senior Heliman
Location: N.e. Pennnsylvania Usa

VidMarv
I fly the Tr 450 and the Blade Cp Pro. After 200 flights on my CP Pro I put it on the shelf lacking interest. I have been reading all the nice mods here and decided to upgrade the CPP to see if it can fly any better. I have had an unexpected explosion of interest in my old Pro by switching to the Part 370 brushless motor. This was one big improvement jumping to the head higher head speed. Now going to the Medusa brushless tail motor like Micro Maniac on here. Try that brushless upgrade next. As far as I am concerned, that CP pro shouldn't have been sold without the brushless....
Just my 2 cents
Jojo

Trex Se V2 4S Trex 600 Nitro

02-15-2008 09:43 AM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

Thanks Itsjojo

I finally gave up on the metal head with the stock motor. I've come to the conclusion that it will simply not work at the lower rotor speeds produced by a stock motor. I will eventually do the brushless upgrade, but for now, it would be over kill as I am still working on hovering orientation. Perhaps when I can comfortably do FFF, then I will try the brushless set up with the metal head.

Presently, I am back to the stock head with the metal swashplate and it flies great. Wish I had read the motor set of the folks who said the metal head "was a great improvement". In hindsight, I see they had mostly all upgraded to a brushless set up. When I can comfortably fly figure eights with my model, I will give the brushless set up a try. Until then, I think it would be overkill for my skill level (learning hovering in all orientations). I wish that the metal parts had accomplished what I was hoping for.... a tighter BCP+, but know I will use them eventually. I really like this micro-heli, I can fly it at work and in the backyard at home. Can't do that with my 450.

Wish they made a micro Trex!

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

02-15-2008 01:21 PM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

Still erratic

OK, I've converted to a brushless main, replaced the spindle shaft and main shaft and it still flies like a pig. I've been alternating between the stock set up (works fine, though a bit sloppy) and the CNC and playing with the throttle curve to try and get it flying right. My question now is for anyone flying the full metal head successfully;

What blades are you using? Wood? CF? Plastic?

What pinion are you using?

What does your throttle curve look like?

I don't have a RPM gauge yet, so I have no idea what my head speed is, but if someone can provide some numbers for a working set up, I'll probably buy one for the tool box.

Also, anyone have any links to set up info for this piece of bling? The instructions included have very nice parts blow ups, but nothing regarding the questions that I've ask above. I've been thinking of contacting microheli to see if they have any other info on the set up. hadn't found anything on the web site, maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place?

I really wanted a tighter set up for the head. The stock set up flies very nice, just want better. Perhaps this is not realistic?

Many thanks.

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

03-06-2008 03:52 PM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

Back at it again

OK, been flying the stock head for a while, works great. Finally crashed it again yesterday and thought, "Try the Microheli head again". Well, I DON"T have the toilet bowl effect anymore. But here's the deal...

IT FLIES LIKE A PIG!

I give cyclic input and it doesn't respond. I give it more and it SLOWLY moves in the requested direction. Am I missing something here?

I guess my present questions (for those who have made this head work) is...

Do I need to change the programming on the DX7 to get it to respond correctly? More travel range? Less EXP?

Also, the linkage seems tighter than the stock set-up. I had thought this would give it more stability, but now I wonder. How tight is too tight?

I slipped the stock head back on so I can keep flying, but I will try this again one day soon, so....

Any help is appreciated.

I will NOT give up. I will NOT give up. I will NOT give up. I will NOT give up. Well, maybe I WILL give up (and use it on something other than a BCP!)

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

04-14-2008 08:25 PM

zaw
Veteran
Location: Lebanon, NH - USA

Don't give up!

hehe,, check all the linkages. that head have a lots of see/saw style ball links, they could be flipped over and still look RIGHT, that will cause your heli to wobble because pitch change when wrongly setup link get to the a position of the swash. If you have both wrong it won't wobble but your cyclic controls will be slow or not work at all.

BCP+CP2 mix Separates BL, DD-tail, HH //\\ HBK2 JGF 400 11T //\\ Friend's B400

04-14-2008 11:32 PM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

ok, NOT giving up!

Thanks for the reply Zaw. I will review the set-up on the seesaw arms. Any modifications to the DX7 programming for this thing? The instructions that came with it only had parts blow-ups, nothing regarding set-up for this tiny bling.

Thanks again.

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

04-15-2008 02:27 PM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

Still NOT giving up

A tree jumped in front of my heli last night, so...

I'm going to give the CNC head a try again. I am running the E-flite BL & ESC with an 8t pinion.

For you guys out there running an aluminum head...

what pinion are you using with it?

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

04-17-2008 01:35 PM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

10t pinion

OK, if you guys hadn't figured it out yet, each time I have a major crash, I give the CNC aluminum head another try. Each time, I try something different in hopes it will one day work.

I have converted to BL motor with an 8t pinion, but still have not been able to get it to work. So this time, I'm going to try a 10t pinion with CF blades and see what happens.

I had hoped to get a 9t, but the LHS does not have one. Since I've got a 10t laying around, I thought I'd give it a spin.

My concerns are for the motor at this point. I have read a few post regarding burning out these motors with a higher count pinion, so I wondered....

Can I start off small with my throttle curve, say only going to 75% as max, and work up from there?

What should I be monitoring to prevent damage to the BL motor?

And, if you are using a metal head....

What pinion do YOU have on it? Any special set-up?

I'm hoping this will work and will keep you posted. Anyone who experiments with this stuff, please, give me some input. I'm really struggling with this one. If it doesn't work this time, I'm not sure I'll try again. Perhaps I should just save the bling for another model?

VM

PS - Today my heli was accosted by a chain link fence. The fence won.

Perfectly sliced air every time!

04-22-2008 07:29 PM

TwistedrotoR12
Senior Heliman
Location: Wichita ks

i just wouldnt use plastiblades. they are nothin but trouble when you crash, i always broke a boom and cut the tail wires no matter how hard i hit, thats probably not the answer, but hope it helps.
Good Luck!

<Clearviewfield.com>

04-23-2008 02:31 PM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

I tried CF blades yesterday

Still flies like a pig. Switched back to stock head now.

Hi lv2fly15,

I slipped a bit of aluminum tubing over the tail boom right where it strikes. Still using the plastic blades. The bigger problem for me is that they tend to constantly break the blade grip. Still, $10 for blade grips is cheaper than $17 for blades. I've had the same set of plastic blades on it for the last couple of months. Shredded many other parts, but they still fly.

The weight makes flying more stable, but I can see the day when I switch back to woods. Lighter with a faster response could be a good thing. Just gotta get my skills up so I don't go broke!

Thanks for the input.

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

04-23-2008 05:04 PM

BOB WHO?
Senior Heliman
Location: downey, ca., usa

Hi vid
First of all, don't ever expect the blade cp pro be as stable as a 450 or even a smaller belt driven heli like a esky king II. I have two of them (BCPP) completely modified and they fly real well compared to a stock version. I think that your stability problems come from the soft dampening in the head that the stock o-rings provide. There are several things you can do. I use a modified version of Dougs RC's 7/64ths windshield washer hose (you can get it at any auto parts dealer). I'll describe Dougs version here. Get some black rubber ww hose and cut two pieces approx. 3/32 to 1/8" thick so that they replace the stock o-rings and fit flush in the recess that the o-rings came out of. You may want to add some shims (eflite thin washers I forgot the part number) to put between the new dampeners and the step washer. I used to use as many as 5 or 6 per side. Use an equal number per side. Reassemble the head and you will find a much more stable heli, not however as stable as you will wish it was. Also search in this site for posts about upgrades for this heli by "tutelar" and "micro maniac". These guys are experts and very generous with info. One of these days I will post a description of the hose I use that provides a more stable flight than rubber hose.

Bob

04-23-2008 06:02 PM

vidmarv
Senior Heliman
Location: ft walton beach, FL

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the tip. I do use shims, but haven't used as many as you describe. I do always use an equal number on each side, so I wondered how you determined the number? Trial and error?

I hadn't heard the tip about using the hose. That sounds interesting. I'm always looking in hardware stores for o-rings that small and hadn't considered using tubing. I'll start looking at that now. I have heard of others using another set of bearings in the head (instead of dampeners) but haven't found bearings that small yet.

I realize it will never fly like my 450. I suppose one of the other reason's I was hoping to make it work was durability. A minor blade strike will break my blade grips. That adds up fast, so I guess I figured it might be cheaper in the long run to use aluminum. I was also hoping for something that would "hold" it's set up a bit longer. I get through about 20 flights or so and notice the head loosening up. When I rebuild it, I notice ball links are looser, dampeners are chewed up and there is just more slop overall.

At the end of it, I still can't get the full metal head to fly worth a crap. I'm beginning to wonder if it might be servo's? Perhaps they are just too weak to throw around that much weight. I've tried everything else, may as well go there. At least I will have learned a great deal about this model, both building and flying, and feel better about moving on to a more expensive model, though I think I will always have a micro in the fleet. I have been seriously eyeing a Gaui EP200. I figure when I stop crashing so much, I should be able to save the money and have the skills to make the most of one of those.

In the meantime, the BCP fulfills it's roll as a trainer for the T-rex 450. If I try something new, I try it on the BCP first and when proficient (read bored) with on the Blade, I'll take it to the T-rex. So far, it's worked as I've only had two crashes on the T-rex, both due to mechanical failures.

Still, much fun!

VM

Perfectly sliced air every time!

04-23-2008 08:23 PM

BOB WHO?
Senior Heliman
Location: downey, ca., usa

Hi VM
To answer your question: for me it was trial and error to determine how many shims to use. I ended up using 6 per side with the stock o-rings. Now I use a plastic hose instead of the windshield washer hose. I use no shims now. It is harder material and I found that the smaller the heli the stiffer the head needs to be. Maybe I should say that this small heli (BCPP) can use as stiff a head as possible. I have not used bearings as I've heard some guys use. The only metal I have on mine are swashplates. I have a BL main motor w/10t pinion. The DD tail is brushed. If everything is working together on one of these helis they fly pretty well. Get heavy on the collective and cyclic and you're going sideways, even with a HH gyro. I like mine, I just don't expect that much from them. I carve nice fast turns and figure 8's. I have not flipped them lately but they'll flip and roll if you have the courage. I say get the head nice and stiff (7/64ths w/w hose) stay with the plastic grips and fly it.

04-25-2008 04:14 AM

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e-E-Flite Blade CP CX 400-3D > Blade CP++ Metal Head + Plastic Blades = Erratic Flight

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