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Aerobatic 3D Contest > Inverted backwards flight - whats the gyro's limit?
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Hi guys

I've been practicing this maneuver (or should I say flight position?) in the sim for a few weeks. I have it pretty much nailed down and I started to try for real like 15 flights ago. The problem is that, eventhough I've mastered the basic "finger movements" so I don't have to think about how to turn right or left, the collective is still a bit "stuck". I have the nasty tendency of adding too much pitch or fail to reduce pitch when I'm in a strait line pattern. This makes the heli enter terminal speed and usually ends with the tail blowing out 90 degrees. Now I think its normal for this to happen even with a high end gyro but I wanted to be sure. Can some Pro really tell me: "Yeah Tony, if you don't managed collective/speed properly in inverted backwards, any gyro will blow out"?
I've been having some problems with my logictech 6100 lately but this tail swinging only happens at this particular condition. I can understand how it can happen but I wanted to be sure, it really happens to every one.

Anyway, I have a spartan coming soon so I probably will find out if its gyro related or not (unless its trex 600n related ) but I really would like know.

Thx
Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
01-28-2008 12:01 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JJMAN
Senior Heliman
Location: Chesapeake, Virginia - USA

I'm no pro, but I can fly inverted backwards. If I am carrying too much pitch and going very fast, yes, my 6100 will blow out, especially if I'm turning alot. Even with a proper setup there is a point in which it will reach its limit.

I too had a problem with going too fast when I was learning inverted backwards until someone pointed it out to me, then I slowed it down and it got alot easier.

***I Like Jet Noise***
01-28-2008 12:16 AM
 
 
cdrking
Elite Veteran
Location: Seattle

Quote 
"Yeah Tony, if you don't managed collective/speed properly in inverted backwards, any gyro will blow out"?
I believe you have figured it out. If you're adding pitch and adding it to the point where you're bogging the motor/head speed even slightly you are reducing the RPM of the tail too.

When I was still flying Raptor 50's with a GY401 you really had to manage the collective properly. If not the tail would give out.

IMHO you can blow any gyro out. If you don't manage the sticks properly then you're going to lose RPM. This is of course assuming your tail/gyro is setup properly.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.
01-28-2008 12:22 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Thank you

Yes, I do bog the engine when inverted backwards... I seem to add always too much pitch, call it instinct, call it fear of the bird coming down but I've been trying to overcome this and reduce pitch. its getting better as I'm blowing out the tail less and less but on windy days when the bird pick ups speed down wind is still a little difficult. I'm also flying very high (fear once again) which makes it harder to see how the bird is behaving (speed becomes harder to judge). Maybe when I gain more confidence, I'll bring it lower. I'm also only using 20% nitro so its much easier to bog the engine than running 30% I believe.

Thx again

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
01-28-2008 01:45 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Kinger
Elite Veteran
Location: Columbus, OH

Two things will make the tail blow out during inverted backwards. #1 is bogging the engine as you've described. #2 is getting too much speed going and then getting the tail too far off line with the main body of the heli.
01-28-2008 01:52 AM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

I think I'm doing both at the same time... no wonder lol.

I really need to practice. I changed my paddles today (from superstubz to V's) so I would have a little more stability and focus more in the manuever itself and not in correcting the birds path all the time. I don't notice this while flying strait because the correction occurs naturally but when inverted it overstresses my brain (doing inverted figure 8's plus correcting the brids postion all the time)

I'll let you know how it goes this week

TOny


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
01-28-2008 02:23 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Richardmid1
Senior Heliman
Location: Leeds, England

Having the tail pointing exactly in the direction of travel is the best way, if your going too fast and you step the tail slighty out of line it will swing round.

Eat, sleep, 3D, crash, repair, repeat...
02-25-2008 02:31 PM
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Thx for the info

Anyway, it seems as my gyro had some sort of a problem too as I lost the tail during a piro in middle of a tic toc. Tried to save it but no way... hit the dirt hard.

I already rebuild the bird and put a spartan /9254 in it. Seems to be holding fine right now

Tony


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"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
02-26-2008 12:00 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Tday
Key Veteran
Location: Needham, MA

As I've tried to sort it out tail holding power depends upon two things...the amount of power your tail blades can generate at full pitch (left and right) and how clever your gyro is at sensing it needs to correct the tail and how fast it can make the pitch correction. This second item is the programming and sensor in the gyro and the speed of the tail servo. OK, if that the list of things the gyro can use to hold a tail it will be affected by.

1) undersized tail blades or tail blades without much "power." I usually put as big and aggressive a tail blade on as fits the heli. Depends on the model what the biggest/most aggressive one is.

2) not spinning the tail blades fast enough. Some models let you pick your tail gears, but even if not, when you bog the motor the tail slows down, so the max turning power a gyro has to use to hold the tail is reduced (a lot.)

3) gyro...there are a lot of opinions on this one but the 6100 is a fabulous gyro and the tail servo is very very fast. Hard to imagine you can change gyros and have it be better, honestly. Maybe so, but seems unlikely. Now a 401 is not nearly up to the job as the 6100, but the 6100 is really good.

Then the final thing is how much you're asking the tail to do. If you're going really fast but the tail isn't dead on straight, you're asking it to a lot more than when going slower and or if straight. So go fast, bog the motor, have the model off line, and add in tail blades...and there you have it.

Tom

2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
02-26-2008 02:01 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
tchavei
rrProfessor
Location: Portugal

Not saying the 6100 isn't good. Like I said... mine probably has a problem as I can't repeat the failure on the spartan (and boy did I try). What remains to be found is if it is the gyro or the servo (both sent back to factory for inspection). When I lost the tail (twice) it wasn't a 90 degree whip... it was total loss of control of the tail for over 2.5 seconds. I saved the bird first time by landing in TH in the middle of some bushes but lost the second time as tail wouldn't lock not even in TH... hit ground inverted hard.

Tony


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"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."
02-26-2008 03:40 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Yug
rrProfessor
Location: Niatirb Taerg

For fast backwards, it's important to keep the tail aligned so as to minimise the amount of power consumed by the TR while giving the gyro/servo it's best opportunity to maintain hold performance. A good indication of the tails overall holding capability is with fast travelling piros as you'll begin to feel a whippyness above certain speeds. Fast sideways flight is also a good indicator of your systems limits. Try going up really high then doing a sideways fall to earth.
The tail does have limits as to the lateral speed it can accomodate at max TR pitch and once a gyro has lost hold, it can become vague or unpredictable as to when it regains control so it's worth getting to know it's limits so you can work with it.

Team Solar Driftwood
03-19-2008 02:19 AM
 
 
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Aerobatic 3D Contest > Inverted backwards flight - whats the gyro's limit?
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