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Thunder Power RC . Real Raptors . Mikado Modellhubschrauber

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > New Flybarless System
 
 
Unpoor
Heliman
Location: Ange Sweden

well the slop is 1,5mm tops, that is when blades in stuck in tranport foam I can turn the upper part of the swash about 1-1,5mm that cant be more than a 1/2 degree or something...

T-Rex 600N Pro SK360, Hurricane 550, T-Rex Hybrid, DX7
04-26-2008 07:26 PM
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

It's also possible the servos are a little different from each other, leading to some interaction. In setup mode check that the swash is level both at max and min collective, you can tweak it by adjusting one or two servo's travel. The gyro would mask interaction when you move collective slowly, but fall behind when you move it quickly.

If the swash moves level for collective, then it might be just an asymmetry in your heli. The gyro already includes a little feed-forward in elevator at extreme collective to compensate for tail drag, the option exists for tweaking in aileron too. The fields were hidden because the interface seemed complicated enough already, it only matters for hard maneuvers, and rough generic comp seemed to work well enough. It could be exposed for users though.
04-26-2008 07:33 PM
 
 
Unpoor
Heliman
Location: Ange Sweden

Ill try tomorrow using the dials instead.. abit ezier than using a laptop, but the setup is perfect, its wery little slope or none at all, swashplate is new and rest is slope free..

T-Rex 600N Pro SK360, Hurricane 550, T-Rex Hybrid, DX7
04-26-2008 08:32 PM
 
 
Unpoor
Heliman
Location: Ange Sweden

I spoke to art and ill be doin some modifications since it behaved same as before, ill add a stealplate with futaba pads like the one for Spartan DS760 gyro mount, increase cyclic up to 10 degrees, gona play with hiller gain abit also..

think I got 2 maybee three issues, tilt right at takeoff, tilt right with hard pitch, and slow right drift at hover...

T-Rex 600N Pro SK360, Hurricane 550, T-Rex Hybrid, DX7
04-28-2008 08:49 PM
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Flybarless Blade 400

Much of today was spend attempting to convert a blade 400 to flybarless (formerly Eury's, his gyro checked out perfect). Overall the 400 looked like a clean heli to convert...

But it's an angry little heli so far. I've tried leading and trailing grips, mid to hard damping, various gains, and no luck yet. Yet the same setup files, gyro, and gyro mounting method works on a testbed Trex 450 here. It's like the 400's rotor disk has a mind of its own, not following what the gyro commands. Possibly the head block itself is too flexible, and the grips don't sit solidly on their bearings.

So this post is just a warning: the Blade 400 is hard to get good flybarless results with, at least with stock parts.

If you want to convert one, I'd suggest using Trex450 head parts. Plastic grips with a metal block and metal reducer arms is a good working combo (the plastic grips act as a cheap fuse, breaking before anything else if you crash).
05-01-2008 07:45 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

What Blades...

...were installed on the Blade? Stock wood or something else? You're tempting me to try using mine as a test bed. Maybe the blades were showing an instability through an aft chordwise CG?

I know it will be frowned upon (flame suit on!) but have you tried holding the heli while testing its response to the gyros? If I need to do a quick check of vibration or other responses with one of these littl'uns, I'll firmly grasp the frames above and behind the landing gear struts and carefully spin it up. A little unnerving but so far so good. Keep the entire heli above my head, just in case...

I was reading the manual and hit a line that begs for comment.

Quote:
"Note: In flight mode, the swash will tilt forward slightly at full
positive collective pitch, and backward slightly at full negative pitch, to compensate for tail-drag during fast climbs and descents."

I understand the base reason for adding this compensation but it needs to be disabled if the user so desires. If the heli is inverted and pulling lots of negative pitch to climb, the swash compensation will be going the wrong direction - will make the longitudinal trim worse. If the Hiller gain is high enough to produce a strong heading-hold gyro effect, why bother adding an artificial compensation?

And an obvious manual error, in the troubleshooting section. This is entered twice:

Heli tends to oscillate rapidly.
(Test by giving a sharp elevator
or aileron command, and then
release of the stick)

OK, bye for now.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
05-01-2008 08:56 AM
 
 
lesodell3
Senior Heliman
Location: michigan usa

how does my head look ? did i miss anything

05-02-2008 12:20 AM
 
 
Eury
Elite Veteran
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Quote 
What Blades...

...were installed on the Blade? Stock wood or something else? You're tempting me to try using mine as a test bed. Maybe the blades were showing an instability through an aft chordwise CG?

Both the stock woodies and a set of carbons, it does the same thing with both of them.


Nick Crego
Never trust a big butt and a smile
05-02-2008 01:03 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Oh...

And this "thing" that it does is to dart about (randomly tilt) the rotor disk while in a hover? Or is it more subtle than that? Wish you had a video showing the effect.

Edit:
Quote 
Possibly the head block itself is too flexible, and the grips don't sit solidly on their bearings.

But this seems as if you'd see problems when the gyros aren't in the system and the servos are connected directly to the receiver. Angry indeed. Is it flyable at all with the gyro gains set to zero?


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
05-02-2008 01:09 AM
 
 
Eury
Elite Veteran
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

I couldn't even get it off the ground. There's something about that heli with the SK360.


Nick Crego
Never trust a big butt and a smile
05-02-2008 01:40 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Daggummit, I was planning on using my sacrificial Dragonus II as a test bed but now you've peaked my curiosity with the Blade 400. It needs a "servoectemy" anyway so doing more invasive surgery isn't a big deal.

Last Q for now: Were you using the DS75 servos on cyclic in this case?


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
05-02-2008 01:48 AM
 
 
Eury
Elite Veteran
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

Completely stock. Why would you want to do it? It didn't work for me, and I sent it to the developer of the thing, and he can't get it to work right either. It flies great stock, just leave it and put the SK360 on something better.


Nick Crego
Never trust a big butt and a smile
05-02-2008 01:54 AM
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

>>But this seems as if you'd see problems when the gyros aren't in the system and the servos are connected directly to the receiver.

You might see the issues, but mechanical instability would be made worse by the gyro, because it tries to correct so quickly. I got it off the ground with near-zero Hiller but even then it had nasty kicks.

>>Last Q for now: Were you using the DS75 servos on cyclic in this case?

The LHS was out of gears for them, so I used HS45HB's, which are analogs but have near zero backlash and decent torque. At least, similar torque to the DS285's I used on a Trex 450 which has never had these problems with a wide variety of head configurations or blades.

And as Eury said he tried carbon blades with the same results. They didn't fit the grips perfectly, but I don't think that was the issue. So that's 2 blade and 2 servo options. I'm thinking its something about the flexibility or geometry of the grips, but I'll take another look at the data logs.

This has really underlined for me the importance of mechanical setup, and how subtle it can be. It's also useful because I finally have a "working" example of the whole set of bad behaviors that I've otherwise only read about on these forums, and that's the key step in resolving them, no matter the cause.

Until there are for-purpose heads and blades, all of these conversions are experimental. Results only seem reliable if you follow a well-proven formula for each specific heli.
05-02-2008 02:11 AM
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

lesodell3: It looks good from here, as long as the top of the swash doesn't rotate w/r to the grips and there isn't any binding. You also want firm but not rigid teeter damping. Be sure to double-triple-check that the control directions and the gyro's compensation directions are correct in flight mode. Getting those wrong triggers instant flipover.

And if it does anything weird during spool up, shut it down and check in please, I'm more than happy to help. It seems like a heli either works with minor or no issues, or shows problems at spool up right away.
05-02-2008 02:20 AM
 
 
heli_headcase
Veteran
Location: Hovering around Atlanta

Quote 
Why would you want to do it?

Because that's how I learn.


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...
05-02-2008 02:34 AM
 
 
e-copter
Senior Heliman
Location: Nice, France

Hi Eury,

i've checked your heli pictures and could found some reasons why the SK360 does not work properly.
Below my text is the picture with the points which casue problems to you.

A: The blade grips extension for the ball linkage are too long. There is an insane lever effect twisting the blade grip arm between the ball link and the main body of the blade grip. This causes an erratic answer to the SK360 inputs. it's a little like having a carbon torque tube for the tail completely delaminated as a result: waggy, at low gain, and "kicky" at higher gains.

B: The main hub is totally empty in the middle. The flybar pivot is not there to link the two sides of the rotor head, and i would say that you get 5 / 10 ° of unphasing when the main hub twists. with the blades trainee (airfoil, sorry i do not know the exact name in english), it's like if you had a brake disck on the top of your head and it unphases it by twisting the hub backward when you apply pressure on the brake, and forward when you release it; Imagin the effect with backwarding and forwarding blades + the torque handled by the hub.

C: i can not se very clearly, but it seems you are full neg pitch with very little elevator; The part seems very "straight" and the ball link is close to bind on the swashplate. Be carefull with pop out of the linkage.

D: according to full neg pitch, your servo arms look not very angled. I would recommend removing or reducing the brass inserts you have on the blade grips for the ball linkage, and bring the servo arm ball link closer to it's center if possible. As well, teh Eflite servos are not very powerfull and have natural slope .

If you add the fact that your main hub twistes on itself, that your blade grips arm twisst as well and that your servos will act as bumpers for all of that, it will be very hard for the Sk unit to ake it"s job properly as each input you will give to it will be then translated for the rotor head and the problem is that the SK unit will not be able to "feed back" the desired input. And the more it will try to compensate with inputing some wider orders, the more the entire head hub / blade grips arms will twist and give erratic answers as everything will be delayed and amplified.

Anyway, i think that with a simple main metal hub and metal grips ( you cna find some aftermarket very easy and very cheap), you should solve 99% of your problems. Important is to try to find blade grips where the ball link is fitted with it's screw parrallel to the feathering shaft and not perpendicular to it. It avoids linkages pops outs.

That said, you have a very clean setup on your heli and before switching your SK 360 to a nem heli, i would encourage you to try to find a Zoom 400 like metal hub and metal grips to make more tests.

For the 450 heli sizes, the best hub / grips combination existing on the market is the Mini titan main hub ( it's wide, it's good for flybarless!) with the metal grips. They can be fould cheap everywhere.

The Kasama head is not bad but honnestly the aluminium quality and milling precision is not as good as on the original thunder tiger parts ( i had to setup one, full of small bugs like too long screws ripping on flybar and so on..)

Another hub you could try for very cheap is the Walkera 60#B metal hub( the small MFS head) with it's blade grips , i must have one somewhere i'll take pictures for you later.

Hope you will finnish to find the bugs and solve them, the SK 360 is a nice thing and i'm building it in my Bell 222 fuse now (it's a 450 size) with a custom mechanics. Crossing fingers ))

Best regards,
Fabien



Too much is not enough....
05-02-2008 02:57 AM
 
 
Brokenlink
Senior Heliman
Location: Oakdale,Ca.

Head block

What size is the main shaft on the blade 400.The reason I ask is that I have a metal head block,and grips that will take a 5mm main shaft.Eury,Bruce,or heli head case,if you can use it or make it work PM me and you can have it.
05-02-2008 12:45 PM
 
 
e-copter
Senior Heliman
Location: Nice, France

Hi,

from my memory, the zoom 400 has a 5mm main shaft. But bruce 2.5 or Eury will tell you better

Best regards,
Fabien

Too much is not enough....
05-02-2008 12:53 PM
 
 
Brokenlink
Senior Heliman
Location: Oakdale,Ca.

Ok,thanks e-copter.They might be able to use it then.
05-02-2008 01:08 PM
 
 
Danish helifly
Heliman
Location: Denmark

Okay..

I have test flown my terex600N with the new SK360. It worked very god out of the boks. But had som issues after i tuned more to 3D flight. Also got those heavy roll to the right. It can come where ever you are in the air with high rpm. At low rpm there no was flip.. The reason for this roll, what i found is vibraitions. I stripped the SK360 a litle more tight on the pads, and that gave even more roll/kick to the right. My settings for vib filter is 1. So i will cut the strip of again and dial the vib filter to 3.
Bruce, can you tell me what parameter i have to adjust when setting vib filter to 3?

Cheers
05-02-2008 01:42 PM
 
 
19 pages [ <<    <     13      14     ( 15 )     16      17     NEXT    >> ]21568 viewsPOST REPLY
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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > New Flybarless System
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