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Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC . CanoMod

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > New Flybarless System
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

The compensation is adjustable, the manual states to start at a low value of 50% initially, to be sure it doesn't oscillate. 60% to start is probably quite safe though. [beer]
04-19-2008 03:00 AM
 
 
Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

The stabilization setting are turned pretty far down by default, you are supposed to turn them up to your liking. I just did everything according to the defaults.


Nick Crego
Back off man, I'm a scientist.
04-19-2008 03:00 AM
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Unpoor, Clearance, and others flying nitros:

After some further testing here, we found that on some idling nitros the SK360 will not realize when the heli is on the ground. If you set Hiller Decay to 100%, as I'm sure most have by now, this should not affect take offs much (the spool up mode just forces a high hiller decay value for a few seconds, to allow the option of setting it low for flight).

What it will still effect is when the gyro reads the gain dials. Normally it reads them at boot, and at spool up. This means that if you change the gain dials, you'll need to kill the motor and let it be still for 10 seconds to be sure the new values are read in. Clearance has been flying for some time with his Evo 50, so it should be ok otherwise.

A firmware update will be sent out in a week or so to correct this behavior for nitros.
04-19-2008 10:25 PM
 
 
JohnR
Heliman
Location: Dallas

I guess I don't understand the philosophy of making the flybarless system initialize during spool up, or lock after aiborne. What goes up must come down. In emergency auto situations, you will have to land with a heli that has many times more cyclic authority at low head speed then a flybar system, and you don't get to choose the circumstances. No better place to learn this characteristic then take-off.

I have had countless ESCs fail in the worst places, tail belts break, wiring come apart...Electrics are more reliable then nitro helis were 20 years ago. But they do have their failures too.

Good luck to those pioneering this new technology.

John
04-20-2008 02:25 PM
 
 
eric_b
Key Veteran
Location: Denver, CO, USA

I've installed mine on my Mini Titan. I fiddled with servo travel settings and linkage lengths a while, until I realized I had one lazy servo that needed to be replaced. Then everything seemed ok. I've flown 4 test flights so far. I've definitely noticed a strong tendency to flip (unexpected hard cyclic input) right before takeoff, with nearly every setting I've tried. It seems that horsing it into the air without using any cyclic to correct and then trying to correct once airborne is the least "exciting" way to takeoff. I've been trying to tame the rates down enough to make the heli stable as so far it's skitterish enough that flying it is a chore. My last effort, by increasings gains, decreasing control rates, gave me a very unstable platform. From watching some of the promo vids of this, I guess I just haven't arrived at the right combination of settings yet, but it sure seems like I'm a ways away from having it sorted out. I'll try to post some pics of my install and settings shortly.

Edit - I've uploaded my .sk1 settings file to my gallery.
04-20-2008 04:45 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
lesodell3
Senior Heliman
Location: michigan usa

i wonder if this head setup on a 500 could work maybe scaled down of course



aah words to live by. "A side note, vigilante behaviour will be squelched!"
04-21-2008 12:16 AM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

> i wonder if this head setup on a 500 could work maybe scaled down
> of course

Mikado sells the flybarless head in two sizes. One appropriate for 400-550 mm blade size helis and one for 580 mm and up size helis.

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
04-21-2008 02:25 AM
 
 
lesodell3
Senior Heliman
Location: michigan usa

i havent heard of many people using them i wonder why ?

aah words to live by. "A side note, vigilante behaviour will be squelched!"
04-21-2008 12:04 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

> i havent heard of many people using them i wonder why ?

Everyone flying a flybarless Mikado is using them. They are $200 for the complete head including the swash driver. Made for 10 mm main shafts and very, very nice quality.

Logo 10/500 size
Logo 14/600 size

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
04-21-2008 01:39 PM
 
 
gorn
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Australia

Logo 10 is running 500mm blades, Trex 500 is running 425mm.
I think the head will be a different size. Plus the Trex 500 has an 8mm main shaft.

If you bling it, they will come :D
04-21-2008 01:42 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

> Logo 10 is running 500mm blades, Trex 500 is running 425mm.
> I think the head will be a different size.

The Logo 400 has the same head as the Logo 10/500. But, it also retains the 10 mm main shaft. The blade bolt center-to-blade bolt center distance is about 5 9/16".

> Plus the Trex 500 has an 8mm main shaft.

That would pose a slight problem.

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
04-21-2008 01:49 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Any update on the tip-over-at-takeoff issue?

Since this doesn't seem to happen with the V-Bar or CSM solutions, there's obviously some difference in design/algorithm that causes this behaviour. My V-Bar'd Logo 10 never did this at all. I've made an older Logo 10 flight worthy again to test the SK360 on, but I'm leary of this issue.

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
04-22-2008 05:44 PM
 
 
gian
Senior Heliman
Location: AZ

Anyone selling cheap? I'll be a test pilot...
04-22-2008 06:53 PM
 
 
eric_b
Key Veteran
Location: Denver, CO, USA

Haven't had time to try more settings yet, but here are some pics of my bird.



My cyclic pitch is 7-8 deg max, and total collective is +-11/12.

Current settings (not stable yet): http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...tan_sk360_1.zip
04-23-2008 03:08 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Eric: How much slop is there in the swashplate? Also I notice you use direct linkages from the grips to the swash, and short servo horns. We tried that, but with the mini titan Alvin had better performance when he used reducer arms at the head instead. Also watch that the servo cables have a little slack as they come away from the gyro, so they don't transmit vibration.

JKos> "Any update on the tip-over-at-takeoff issue?"

The CSM and Vstabi units probably have "hiller decay" set high as a default. Once people have their heli's mechanics and the unit set up properly, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.

For take off the rules are just to not touch cyclic until its light on the skids; it might then tip by 5 degrees or so, but any more and something is wrong and you should email support. I've been watching my own habits and I found I'm keeping my thumb off the cyclic stick until collective is past the midpoint and rotor speed is high. I then use a bit of cyclic to level the disk, and then increase collective to take off. Smooth every time.

For beginners at gyro-assisted flybarless, some find it better to "pop up" a few feet, then correct any tilt. But if it does anything weird after spinning up, don't pop up - something is probably wrong. Ask for help first.
04-23-2008 08:47 PM
 
 
eric_b
Key Veteran
Location: Denver, CO, USA

The swash is brand new, no slop. No slop in the linkage either.

Quote 
I found I'm keeping my thumb off the cyclic stick until collective is past the midpoint and rotor speed is high. I then use a bit of cyclic to level the disk, and then increase collective to take off. Smooth every time.

This is basically what I'm doing, and I'm still experiencing strong tip-over tendency if I >breathe< on the cyclic stick before takeoff (cyclic tilt ~ 30-40deg). Still experiencing sporadic cyclic jumps in flight. Have noticed strong aft cyclic (tilt ~ 50-90deg) with rapid positive collective input that I cannot correlate to possible CCPM interaction. This is not apparent with slow (smooth) collective input.

Can you recommend different SW settings for me to try?

Quote 
Also watch that the servo cables have a little slack as they come away from the gyro, so they don't transmit vibration.

Isn't the sk360 supposed to also work in a nitro bird?? I can try giving more cable slack, but I really can't understand how it would help on the electric if this unit is also rated to work on a nitro.
04-23-2008 11:35 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

>Still experiencing sporadic cyclic jumps in flight. Have noticed strong aft cyclic (tilt ~ 50-90deg) with rapid collective input that I cannot correlate to possible CCPM interaction.

I've only seen that with the CG far from under the mainshaft, or more likely blade stall due to low head speed. You mentioned you had 7-8 degrees of cyclic pitch, it is possible the gyro is "running out" of cyclic pitch to apply on hard climb out when the head speeds drops. 8-10 deg might be better.

>Still experiencing sporadic cyclic jumps in flight.

We saw twitches on the Mini Titan early on, due to vibration. Nitros vibrate at a higher freq but not a large amplitude. Any heli can vibrate a lot if the tracking is off, or the damping is too stiff. The mini titan head is very stiff, in particular with carbon fiber blades, so it seems to require more care about vibration. Because the head is stiff, tracking error doesn't show up very obviously.

>Can you recommend different SW settings for me to try?

Honestly the best change to make is to use reducer arms for your rotor head. Alvin only had so-so results on the mini titan until he used reducer arms, minimized vibration, and got the CG right. He also uses high head speeds. I will look up the software settings he used.
[edit: If you're using analog servos, reduce damping gains a bit]
04-23-2008 11:56 PM
 
 
e-copter
Senior Heliman
Location: Nice, France

Hi,

i can see two things that could casue jumps in flight before the SK360itself :

1) Your Rx antenna runs along the tail boom reinforcements. If they are carbon, very bad. You need to separat the antenna from the carbon parts or to insulate it with silicon tube or anything that will prevent the antenna to touch directly the carbon.

2) your Sk uit is fitted right up the tail belt and it's pulley. It's possible that you get cyclic jumps when the static electricity generated by the gears and the belt ripping in the tail boom discharges .

BEfore making any further software tests, i would highly encourage you to first lube the tail belt flat area ( the one on the outside ) with silicon lube or teflon lube. Then you must absolutly route your antenna RX in another way than the one on the picture.

Then, the Mini Titan blade grips are made to work with bell paddles and are normally mimwed down by washout ant pitch mixers arms. In direct cyclic input, you need to have your servos having a correct travel ratio with the blade grips. The Titan grips will ot allow a very good flybarless control as thy are, as input is too sensitive on them like that. You need to have normally 12 mm between the center of the servo arm and the link ball on cyclic servos, and with 60% pitch travel approximatively on transmitter, you must achieve +10 / -10 on pitch and then you need to setup +7 / -7° on cyclic to have the SK360 working fine (or any otherr flybarless stabilisation system).

Finally, you need a good headspeed, more than 2300 rpm (2600 / 2700 works fine) and you must tighten the blades a little more than on bell hiller systems or the blades will go badly forward / backward and you will notice after some time that your linkages going from the blade grips to the swashplate might bend a bit because of the very bad lever effect and high torque generated by the backwarding blade. As well, when the blades go forward / backward, the entire geometry of the rotor disc control is modified and the SK unit will never be able to counteract correclty as it will correct with a dephasing around 6 or 7° sometimes becasue of the blades not beeng correctly aligned.

then, dampening on flybarless must be null or progressive. If it's existing but too tight, then you get lot of vibrations, that is why on real flybarless systems which work ( like hOf rotor heads) the main hub is very wide and you need then very progressive dampening. the wideness of the hub will help keeping soft dampeners for progressive dampening but stays tight enough for fast cyclic answer.

>The electronics, as good as it can be, will not be able to operate correctly if the mechanics does not allow it to work correct.

the last thing is that blades on the market are not meant to work with flybarless systems. The CG's are around middle of blades and should be at least 2cm further to the blade tips.

We made numerous tests with some buddies on a small flybarless heli to find all of this and once you will find the accurate mechanical adjustements, you will have to play with the blade grip control ball location by adding shims or reducing the blade grip control arm lenght to find the best delta setup ( depends on dampening, blades type and rotor head speed + swashplate diameter and pitch ratio on blade grip..).

All that said, try first to eleminate any static electricity / receiving glitches possibilities and then you can start to play with software and mechanical adjustements.

I'm waiting my SK unit to test, we have a Mini Titan Se to perform the tests and a Dragonus, we will test with normal hub / blade grips and then with a special hub and blade grips for flybarless flight and lastly with new customs blades. If anybody is interrested in teh results, we will post them here

BEst regards,

Fabien

Too much is not enough....
04-24-2008 12:35 AM
 
 
eric_b
Key Veteran
Location: Denver, CO, USA

Thanks for the input.

I don't understand what difference it will make if I use either:

--> short servo arms and direct linkage to the grips

OR

--> long servo arms with travel reducing arms before the grips

ASSUMING that both setups will give 8 deg cyclic and +-11 deg collective, servo resolution is not compromised due to narrow servo travel, and that slop is not a factor.

Quote 
1) Your Rx antenna runs along the tail boom reinforcements. If they are carbon, very bad. You need to separat the antenna from the carbon parts or to insulate it with silicon tube or anything that will prevent the antenna to touch directly the carbon.

Understood, however, I have put 100+ flights on this heli in the exact configuration with a flybarred head/same electronics with antenna in same location and never once experienced a glitch problem. The only difference now is the flybarless head, and the sk360.

Quote 
Finally, you need a good headspeed, more than 2300 rpm (2600 / 2700 works fine)

My headspeed is in the 3000 range.
04-24-2008 12:45 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Bruce2.5D
Heliman
Location: Vancouver, Canada

One last idea: When the gyro is connected to the setup software, giving positive collective pitch should make the input field for that channel turn *green*. If not, then the gyro's compensation for tail drag in hard climb outs will be in the wrong direction.

And, the advantages of short servo arms vs reduction arms on the rotor head are: the geometry is better so there is less interaction, and swash slop matters less.
04-24-2008 02:23 AM
 
 
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