RunRyder - Blade Tracking, Again............URGH! - SOLVED!

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e-E-Sky Honey Bee- Lama- Belt CP- E-Smart > Blade Tracking, Again............URGH! - SOLVED!

tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

My woodie blades are strange get this the last cold day I flew they had a 1/4" gap between them (after CNC head installed). I flew indoors the very next day and they were perfect. Cold air may be causing shrinkage and thats not good for people who are already compensating for something.

Canton MO backyard flying club
Club President
Team No funds left.

01-14-2008 01:11 AM

HOMEPAGE

DougsRC
Elite Veteran
Location: MA

Shrinkage

01-14-2008 01:13 AM

fenderstrat
Elite Veteran
Location: Aston,Pa

what is most likely happening is the blades are being made from"fresh" wood(yes I just said FRESH WOOD

)....while sitting in a warehouse overseas...and then over here the wood is curing and warping......then changes in temp and humidity make the problem worse and intermitant......I hate when my wood warps

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST

01-14-2008 01:25 AM

Gregor99
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Quote
I'm starting to think its quality control of the main blades....

I think that's a big part of it. Those blades are inexpensive and cheap. Good for slaming into table legs and garage doors

But.......

I have a set of HeliMax CF blades and have the same tracking issues with them. I sure like those blades, they look and sound great. Plus they arrived almost perfectly balanced. I can't wait unit I'm worthy of them. Until then, I've got 3 more sets of woodies I need to demolish.

01-14-2008 07:08 AM

stainless
Heliman
Location: northern bc canada

Couldn't this be a flybar issue? I'v had the little flange where it bolts on break (nearly undetected) and screw up the tracking. Although my tracking has never been perfect from 0-100%, Its way better than whats been described here, somethings up??

01-14-2008 02:26 PM

J_Cunny
Veteran
Location: Austin, Texas

Thanks for the pics of the turnbuckles...

I just got mine in too. Had the same feeling about them when I installed the ball link end. I ordered a new set of those to install on the new turnbuckle assemblies. So the slop should be minimal once on the swash and hub. Was kinda worried about the fact that the extreme has a finer pitch than the stock rod and the possiblity that they may not catch the plastic very well. Guess I'll find that out. They seem tight now, but as my servos mounts are shot, I have to wait untill I get my replacements in to try it out. When my "bestie" was working I could get the tracking down to about a blade width at 65% but as I increased throttle to 100% it increased but not to the amount that you are seeing. I hope that once I get her back together she will be the same. Definately need to be more anal on my setup. Since I've had to tear her down again I'll have to re-do everything, including gyro install. Was curious if anybody has tried the plastic (at least they look plastic they may be fiber-esque, they are yellow or white in color) blades yet? I saw them on the US Hobby site when I was ordering the turnbuckles.

JC

01-14-2008 05:09 PM

Gregor99
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Quote
Couldn't this be a flybar issue?

I've taken the flybar out checked it for straightness. One paddle was removed to get this done. Both paddles were inspected. The shaft was re-installed with the paddles equidistant from the head.

01-15-2008 04:51 AM

tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

See my tip (Step 3) in this post [http://runryder.com/helicopter/t400512p1/].

I had the same problem on my Belt CP. It was frustrating, because the problem followed one of my blades (when I swapped sides with them) and I could not get the tracking good for both +ve and -ve pitch.

Since making this mod, I have had no issues!

Hope this helps...

01-15-2008 06:26 AM

Gregor99
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Wa

tutelar, that is an interesting idea. One that came up briefly last week. I was discussing this issue with one of the guys at the LHS. He said that on most helis that the mixing arm to blade grip link is the "course" adjustment and the swash to flybar link is the fine adjustment. Alot of helis already have these and was surprised that mine didn't. I couldn't help but notice the B400 is the same way, but didn't bother to mention it. This was before the turnbuckles had arrived and so I thought the additional adjustment would too course to be helpful as well as redundant since the turnbuckles would be all I ever needed.

I might revist the idea. However the thing I noticed was that the tracking didn't seem to hold throughout the day. That tells me its more than just an adjustment. At this point I think I either need to replace the rest of plastic parts in the head or get a CNC head. I've pretty much decided to purple. Now I just have to figure out how I'm going to pay for it. Perhaps while I'm mulling it over, I'll try the adjustable blade link. You never know.

01-15-2008 07:05 AM

shizack
Key Veteran
Location: Augusta, GA USA

Don't know if you saw my post about my second piece of "P", the washout, but I was having a similar issue, albeit not nearly as bad. Now the thing tracks like a knife-edge from 0 to full throttle with the carbons. Haven't tried other blades yet. If you're thinking purple anyway, try the washout first. $22 from JAG.

The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

01-15-2008 07:06 AM

HOMEPAGE

Gregor99
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Quote
Don't know if you saw my post about my second piece of "P",

I saw that you were thinking about it but missed the results. As I recall you have a purple swash and the rest was plastic. So you added the purple washout piece, but nothing else? The rest is still plastic, correct?

01-15-2008 07:27 AM

shizack
Key Veteran
Location: Augusta, GA USA

Got the P-swash last week and it improved cyclic. Added the P-washout today and now my carbons track like a knife-edge from 0 to full throttle. I also had a small issue where, especially in FF, it would drop about a foot and a half when collective was reduced a small bit at certain points in the throttle range. That issue has also all but been eliminated.

Like I said, if you're thinking purple anyway, start with the washout.

Purple swash; purple washout; the rest is stock except for carbon blades. I may put the HDX FRP's back on just to see if they also track truer.

Yep. Gonna do that and report back...

The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

01-15-2008 07:53 AM

HOMEPAGE

shizack
Key Veteran
Location: Augusta, GA USA

Well, the FRP's don't track perfectly from 0 to full throttle like the carbons, but it's a hell of a lot better. Before, they would start off about ½-¾ inch apart and line up at take-off speed. Now they start even, move to about ¼-½ inch apart, and pretty much line back up at liftoff and higher speed. I haven't touched the pitch links since I removed the CF's (they're probably going back on).

Gregor, have you wiggled the horizontal pivot arms on your washout to see if there's any play? Mine had a good bit. The P-washout has absolutely NO play, and rides on bearings instead of bushings.

Can't wait to get the turnbuckles. That should really make it ded-nutZ.

The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

01-15-2008 08:22 AM

HOMEPAGE

Gregor99
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Quote
Gregor, have you wiggled the horizontal pivot arms on your washout to see if there's any play?

Yes, I have a good bit of play there that I can't adjust out. I also have the 1 foot random drop you mentioned. Sounds like a swash and washout worth a try.

01-15-2008 03:26 PM

tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

I made the new adjustable link because I had the same problem when I added P parts. The P parts helped but did not eliminate the problem.

The source of my problem is the wood blades - due to many reasons, they are not identical in their mounting and tracking performance. And never will be. So I had to either go to CF blades that are more exact in their mounting and tracking, or create another solution. At this time, I prefer wood blades because they do not cause as much damage in a crash.

Adjusting blade pitch with the Swash-to-Bell-Mixing-Arm link changes the length side-to-side and affects the symmetry of the controls through the Bell Mixing Arm. If the swash inputs are no longer mirrored, then the pitch changes will not be the same on each side - and the tracking problem is now created by different inputs to each blade (in addition to the original problem of the blades not mounting the same).

That is why I get my setup as close as possible to being "perfect" (ie. parallel and symmetrical) from servo all the way to each blade, then make the final "blade mounting" adjustment at the last link (the new one that I made).

01-15-2008 03:42 PM

DougsRC
Elite Veteran
Location: MA

Gregor, Whats the update if any, on your tracking problems ?????

01-22-2008 12:54 AM

Gregor99
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Doug,

Thanks for checking in. The reduced headspeed has helped, but the same issues persist. The reduced headspead (9t down from a 10t) has changed the gap between blades from about 1/2 inch to 1/4. The heli is airworthy but still vibrates and is not smooth when responding to cyclic.

I have again examined the head in great detail and believe the issue is related to slop in a couple of the linkages as well as the swash. Specifically, one of the links from the blade grip to the control arm is quite a bit more loose than the other. This is the small non adjustable link that connects the blade grip to the rocker arm. I also have a fair amount of slop in the brass ball in the center of the swash that slides on the main shaft.

I've concluded that my issues are likely the result of some ball link stretching that happened during the crash, combined with typical wear. Since Rick and Fender as still running the plastic head, at speeds matching or exceeding my own, I've concluded that its not so much that the plastic head is lacking. Instead, the plastic head requires all parts be in like new (un-stretched, unbent) condition.

I've been going back and forth as to what the best way to address it. I had already given up on the plastic head. But now I think there could be more life in the plastic head, with a complete head-ectomy. Half of it is already new parts. It wouldn't be too expensive to finish it off with all new parts.

I finally made my decision last night. I know that in the end, I'll never be happy with the plastic head for other reasons. The only reason to stick with the plastic head is to solve this mystery and keep costs down during the learning curve.

As both things are still quite important to me, I decided to get the full metal head. Then I will put on the metal swash, washout and replace the remaining linkages that weren't already replaced. If I have the patience, I'd do this one part at the time, checking the blade tracking after each part so we know which part fixed it.

This way I could keep the rest of the head plastic which is all new parts anyway. It will also allow me to use up my stock of plastic head parts like the extra feathering shafts I have laying around. If it doesn't work out, then I just add the rest of the CNC parts and call it a day.

BTW, I also ordered the CNC tail grips and some K&B dream design tail blades. I didn't need these but wanted to try a different set of blades since my tail vibration seems to be better with the blades removed, despite my tail blades being balanced.

01-22-2008 02:15 AM

tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

When you swap the main blades from side to side, does the "high blade" stay with the hardware or stay with the blade?

Is the "high blade" also high in negative pitch, or does it go low?

01-22-2008 02:23 AM

Gregor99
Elite Veteran
Location: Western Wa

Quote
When you swap the main blades from side to side, does the "high blade" stay with the hardware or stay with the blade?

Hardware. Also, it happens with 3 different sets of blades including a very nice set of Heli-Max CFs.

Quote
Is the "high blade" also high in negative pitch, or does it go low?

This is an interesting question as its easier to answer with the range of movement provided by the slop, than a specific number.

High Blade +1 to +4 (3 degrees of movement)
Low Blade -3 to +2 (5 degrees of movement)

Measurements were take with the collective at center stick (pitch curve set to 0). The low side blade is also the one that had the extra slop in the ball link.

01-22-2008 04:11 AM

tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

My second question has to do with tracking, not actual pitch measurements. When you check the tracking, does the "high" blade become the "low" blade with negative pitch...

I know, I know, we don't usually check negative pitch tracking...

01-22-2008 04:42 AM

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e-E-Sky Honey Bee- Lama- Belt CP- E-Smart > Blade Tracking, Again............URGH! - SOLVED!

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