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Scale Model RC Helicopters > Flybarless 700mm 10S4P Jet Ranger OH-58A Build Post (HeliCommand Sys)
 
 
Rodan
Senior Heliman
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ

HS - No such thing as too much power! How 'bout some pics!!

Wilerbee - what kind of flight times are you getting on 8S1P 3850 packs?
03-28-2008 03:35 PM
 
 
wilerbee
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

A good solid 6-7 minutes with time to spare. Don't want to push it so haven't really flown it to the max !!
03-28-2008 03:46 PM
 
 
Rodan
Senior Heliman
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ

Hmmm... interesting. I'm building a 60 Ranger very similar to HS10's, except on stretched TRex 600E mechs. I was planning on using A123s, but the idea of using two 4s5000 packs in series is very interesting...

Anyway, I don't want to jack HS' thread, so back to your regularly scheduled programming!
03-28-2008 04:26 PM
 
 
HS10
Senior Heliman
Location: Elk River, MN

Quote 
Rodan: I'm building a 60 Ranger very similar to HS10's, except on stretched TRex 600E mechs.

I am very much looking forward to your build post!!!!

Quote 
Wilerbee: You actually gain 20% more power without the flybar.

I have no idea that I would gain more power, this is great news... I will turn down my collective pitch some more and try again...

Thanks for the help folks...

Logo 14/24 (Agusta 109A-MKII) (MH-6 Little Bird) (OH-58A) Navy - Retired
03-28-2008 08:58 PM
 
 
Rodan
Senior Heliman
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ

Aside from the scale looks, the increased efficiency is a great benefit of flybarless, and one of the reasons I'm planning to go that way.

My build is going pretty slowly, but here's what I've done so far. I got the servos the other day, so I need to get them installed, and I got some other projects off the bench so I can get started on making the skids and woodwork...

http://www.scalerchelis.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8727
03-28-2008 11:42 PM
 
 
HS10
Senior Heliman
Location: Elk River, MN

Update - post flight

I significantly reduced the collective pitch (top < 5 degrees)...

- Lifted smoothly into a stable hover, need to tweak the EXPO...
- Cyclic was smooth and starting to get use to the new feel, I like it so far...

- Got a glitch while in a hover, quick cyclic impulse, then back to normal...

- I am using a 9 CH Spectrum System... The glitch may be difficult to isolate... I will recheck all wires and move things away from the ESC & motor...

I am really liking flybarless with the HC unit...

Logo 14/24 (Agusta 109A-MKII) (MH-6 Little Bird) (OH-58A) Navy - Retired
03-29-2008 01:18 AM
 
 
wilerbee
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

HS,

What are your pitch settings ? My pitch settings are from -0.5 degrees to 5 degrees at hover to a max of 8 to 8.5 degrees Max.
And congrats on your successful flight.
03-29-2008 03:01 AM
 
 
HS10
Senior Heliman
Location: Elk River, MN

Hi wilerbee

The full range of motion is something craze like 25-30 degrees...

I started with (+/-) 12 degrees... I now have something under (+/-) 5 degrees...

How do you measure pitch???

The pitch gauge I have is designed for rotors with a flybar... I used the same pitch gauge, but places a small bubble level on it and adjusted the pitch to earth level...

Do you know the proper method to measure pitch on a flybarless system???

I rewired tonight and will test fly some more on Saturday... I need to find the glitch problem...

Logo 14/24 (Agusta 109A-MKII) (MH-6 Little Bird) (OH-58A) Navy - Retired
03-29-2008 04:18 AM
 
 
Rodan
Senior Heliman
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ

You might be better off using the boom as a reference for the pitch gauge. If the skids don't place the mechanics level to earth, it will affect your reading. Full size Rangers have a 5 deg forward tilt on the mainmast, so if you duplicated that, it will also contribute. Just make sure that your reference is 90 deg to the mainmast.
03-29-2008 05:56 AM
 
 
WIRLYBIRD
Senior Heliman
Location: CAPE TOWN / SOUTH AFRICA.

Can anyone tell me the differances between the Helli command , and the V-Stabi? Does the Hellitronics not do the same thing?
Dave.

WHAT GOES UP MUST SURELY COME DOWN.
03-29-2008 08:42 AM
 
 
wilerbee
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

HS,
It is all a matter of reference. You can place a spirit level on top on the rotor head as your horizontal reference or you can put the heli next to the window and use the window frame as a reference. There are no special pitch gauge for this, my pitch gauge is just a normal one. You'll find 9 degrees max is all you need. Only on autos will you need 12 + degrees.
Good Luck with your flight. Post pics and/or videos if you can.

Wirlybird,

The V-stabi and the helitronics mixer do similar things, it allows you to fly the flybarless heads like a flybarred one. They both do not automatically stabilize/hover the heli if you let go of the controls.
Helicommand on the other hand has the same feature as V-stabi and helitronics but has the added function of leveling your heli if you let go of the sticks, not quite autopilot, more like auto hover, however it will not control the pitch/throttle for you. In other words, it will not stay at the same height.
03-29-2008 12:27 PM
 
 
HS10
Senior Heliman
Location: Elk River, MN

CRASH ANALYSIS

Hi Folks (update)

The glitch "reared its ugly head" big time...

I moved wiring around to see if it would help eliminate the electrical glitch I have been experiencing...

- The glitch had me worried so I strapped some old training gear back on, in case of trouble...

- Spooled up prefect, no ground resonance, very smooth...

- Moved into a hover about 1 - 3 feet, very smooth, very stable

- I can't believe how well the Helicommand actually works!!!

- My goal was to conduct at least 4-5 long hover tests to gain confidence that the electrical glitch was gone

Towards the end of the flight the GLITCH occurred and SLAMMED her into the ground...

I immediately killed power and shut down...

The crash was hard, but the damage initially looks minor...

Looking for help with a crash analysis:

- Was this an radio glitch? I am new to using the Spektrum system... I got Spektrum specifically to avoid this...

- Was it the ESC? I don't think so...

- Was it the Helicommand System??? Not sure??? The glitch did not cause cyclic movement, only collective... In fact I think the helicommand keep the rotor level throughout the crash...

I initially think it was the Spekturm System going into "failsafe mode"... I have never experienced failsafe mode so I don't know what it is like...

- The Spektrum is a 9 channel and I got an extra receiver... This means that I the 3 sets of antenna and all are oriented differently...

Any ideas???? THANKS...







Logo 14/24 (Agusta 109A-MKII) (MH-6 Little Bird) (OH-58A) Navy - Retired
03-30-2008 02:58 PM
 
 
Tap or Snap
Senior Heliman
Location: Springhill, Fl

I wish I could be of more help. Id start by checking servo wires, wiggle them where they exit the servo while giving stick inputs on the bench, then move and go back to a flybar head and see if it still glitches. Try changining the antenna angles and if belt drive coat the belt with some dielectric grease (helps with static build-up). Just some things to try. Try to backstep to the point where it didnt glitch.



---JEFF
03-30-2008 05:05 PM
 
 
HS10
Senior Heliman
Location: Elk River, MN

Hi Rodan
Hi Tap or Snap

I am close to getting it back into the air...

At this point I don't completely trust the Spektrum System...

I am thinking about putting the original Futaba System back in... If there are no glitches it is the Spektrum System... If there is a glitch it is the Helicommand...

My preference is to go with a System that is more difficult to "shot down"... Once I isolate the problem I will explore the failsafe setting on the Spektrum... I really want to go the the newer technology...

Quote 
checking servo wires, wiggle them where they exit the servo while giving stick inputs on the bench, then move and go back to a flybar head and see if it still glitches.

-- I am going to do this now...

Quote 
Try changining the antenna angles

-- I will try this when I go back to the Spektrum...

THANKS...


Here is the repairs after the crash...

I was very lucky!!!!





Logo 14/24 (Agusta 109A-MKII) (MH-6 Little Bird) (OH-58A) Navy - Retired
03-30-2008 07:02 PM
 
 
WIRLYBIRD
Senior Heliman
Location: CAPE TOWN / SOUTH AFRICA.

Wilerbee , thanks for the help there will get back to you later , first will down load the instructions.
DAve.

WHAT GOES UP MUST SURELY COME DOWN.
03-30-2008 11:40 PM
 
 
HS10
Senior Heliman
Location: Elk River, MN

UPDATE

Just got done with a short test flight...

This flight was using my original Futaba PCM equipment... I installed the Futaba to determine if the glitch is related to the Helicommand or the radio system...

This time I got another type of glitch again... This seems to eliminate the Spektrum System that I was originally using to some degree...

While hovering I started to get some violent cyclic oscillation that I never seen before...

Got it back on the ground safely, but somewhat hard...

I have the Helicommand mounted on a solid location away from the ESC and and bearing...





I normally use an 8 cell battery pack connected to a Duralite Voltage Regulator... The regulator is mounted as far as possible from the ESC and motor...

I have replaced the Duralite with s CC Regulator and will see if it is possible the a voltage drop caused the problem... I understand that the Helicommand Rigid places a greater electrical demand...

Thanks

Logo 14/24 (Agusta 109A-MKII) (MH-6 Little Bird) (OH-58A) Navy - Retired
03-31-2008 02:48 AM
 
 
wilerbee
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

HS,

with the spektrum, sounds like you had a static discharge that caused a momentary lock out. Did you follow the Helicommand installation instruction to ground the rear tail boom ? You have to do this especially with the 2.4 ghz systems. This had been known to cause a few crashes. Just drill a small hole in the tail boom screw in one end of a ground wire and attach the other end to something metallic on the frame.

With the violent oscillations, have you check is the sensor gain correct ? Sounds like too much gain to me. Did you use the autotrim function ? I know it sounds tedious, but everytime I fly I first do a hover check and get all the trims spot on, land and set the new neutral position into the helicommand, hover to double check again before flying circuits. Also I ALWAYS turn off helicommand on takeoff and landing, only switching it on in the hover. SEE why I like slider switches !!

Good Luck and keep at it !!
03-31-2008 02:21 PM
 
 
HS10
Senior Heliman
Location: Elk River, MN

Update

Trouble shooting the electrical glitch:

- Changed receiver - Spektrum > PCM
- Changed voltage regulator - Duralite > CC
- Changed ESC - CC110 > new CC110
- Rework tail boom ground - Checked with meter
- Inspected receiver wire with magnifier
- Rerouted wires

Test fly in the morning...





Logo 14/24 (Agusta 109A-MKII) (MH-6 Little Bird) (OH-58A) Navy - Retired
04-05-2008 03:49 AM
 
 
wilerbee
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

HS,

Magnetic flux ring on ESC receiver wire ?
The antenna routed away from tail boom ? I always mount my antenna facing forward along a fibreglass tube.

Good Luck !
04-05-2008 03:28 PM
 
 
HS10
Senior Heliman
Location: Elk River, MN

Hi wilerbee

Conducted a flight test this morning...

NO GLITCHES!!!

After doing some fine tuning and conducting at least 4-5 more test flights, I plan to try to put the Spektrum System back into to heli...

I have found that I need to run a low rotor speed... If I go fasted I get some pretty serious oscillations...

I have also found that at the lower head speed I don't have good tail rotor authority, and needed to put my larger tail rotor blades back on...

If I don't get anymore glitches I will make a short video of spool-up and hovering...

I have a magnetic flux ring and I will install it for good measure...

Thanks

Logo 14/24 (Agusta 109A-MKII) (MH-6 Little Bird) (OH-58A) Navy - Retired
04-05-2008 03:42 PM
 
 
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Scale Model RC Helicopters > Flybarless 700mm 10S4P Jet Ranger OH-58A Build Post (HeliCommand Sys)
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