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HIROBO Freya - Sceadu - Shuttle > Pissed! - First flight with Arizona Regulator ended in lockout crash, barely a min in air...
 
 
oldboldpilot
Key Veteran
Location: Southern California

If you are using a slide switch for on/off, I recommend you replace it. If these fail under vibration, there is no power to the Rx..

Helis are Man's Defiance of the Laws of Nature - OCHC
12-31-2007 04:31 AM
 
 
hellflyer
Senior Heliman
Location: Staten Island NY

Just adding my 2 cents looking at the picture you have your reciver wire in the plastic casing to protect it and I found on my freya that my reciver would power up my gyro would power up but I would not get any servo movement for around 1/2 min and then my servos would work properly I found that if I would move my reciver wire around it would power up properly and have full controle of my servos I fould it odd but check it out It may be it

The first step in gettin help is admitting you have a problem ( yes I am addicted to helicopters )
12-31-2007 05:42 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Ivan
Veteran
Location: Hutchinson Kansas

I am not sure if the Arizona has the switch made into it or not. I just have the regular adjustable regs from fromeco.

It really sounds to me like your switch, which should be between the battery and regulator is failing under the higher current. The best switch I have sen from a radio manufacturer is the JR heavy duty switch, and it is only rated for 3 amps, if I remember correctly. The Gem rocker switch is supposed to be rated for much more (25?), but i have never used one of them, since the JR heavy duty switch always worked for me.

I haven't used Futaba switches in probably 20 years, so, if their design hasn't changed, they were very prone to fail if you tightened down the screws too much. I would certainly hope that Futaba had addressed this issue long ago.

I say it is the switch for a few reasons. You are seeing a failure with only the higher voltage setup. If there is any resistance, it will heat and get worse with more current, and voltage. The lower voltage and lower current from the nicads wouldn't push it as hard. You also said the machine didn't go into failsafe, indicating a total loss of voltage in the system, which along with the crystal falling out are the only two reasons I have ever seen cause a non failsafe lock out. In addition, when you crashed, the system started working again, probably from the shock of impact causing the contacts in the switch to make contact again. Pretty much everything you are saying says "its the switch".

If the Arizona regulator has the built in switch, like the duralite stuff, where you pull out the pin to turn on the receiver, then I would look very closely at foreign debris getting in there and making a contact when the pin is out. I know it may sound unrealistic, but I have seen a blade of grass get caught in the charge receptacle of a transmitter and short it out and blow the 2 amp fuse. If this were to happen, I would highly suspect that it would be enough to get the receiver to shut down. Seeing it on two different regulators, if they both have this kind of switching, would indicate the need for you to look for something making metal filings or carbon fiber powder that is getting into the switch.

Best of luck to you. I have been in the same situation before and I know how much it frustrates the #$%&^ @*$&@! @#&(( out of you. If you don't find the problem, try drinking. A lot.

I came, I saw, I hovered
12-31-2007 09:49 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Latest update and conclusion

Hi all,

I purchased a RJX50 recently and transferred the Futaba receiver, Spartan gyro, GV1 and installed new Futaba BLS352 servos for cyclic/ BLS251 for tail. Because I am still using a old trusted nicad 2400, I realised I was drawing something like 500mah for each flight and I could only gain about 1000mah from the nicad batt before I decided the voltage is too low for me risking a third flight. This led me to purchase a SGP Reactor thinking that their separate bus powering the servos might work out for me this time.

I WAS WRONG. First flight with the SGP reactor I simply hovered around and nothing amiss happened. Second flight I experimented with Tic Toc (2 or 3 only) to see if I felt anything amiss. All ok. I proceeded to fly a fig 8, opening up the circuit going faster and faster each time, and I felt my elevator giving me delay response (esp in turns) and before I could decide to land the heli to avoid crashing, the darn thing lock out on me again. Exact same spot, same turn, no elevator, no nothing, did not go into failsafe too.

Now, I went through Align 6amp, Arizona Fromeco and now Scott Gray Reactor. It has to be my heli or the receiver but this is now a completely new heli and even servos.

Not wanting to jump to conclusion, and seeing my field mates using Reactor and Arizona on 50 and 90 sized helis with no issues, I decided to bite the bullet and just buy a whole new TX system jumping onto the 2.4 bandawagon. I ordered a JR 9303 with R921, set the whole heli up, left the Reactor in there and pray real hard before I flew at the field.

4 flights thus far, no issue. Damn, I wished I could have done the upgrade earlier. I was just being stubborn refusing to believe the receiver had issues with regulator, since it does work 100% fine with Nicad, why the hiccups with regulator (linear and still yet affected by noise maybe?) and yet pass range check with flying colours? I will never know I supposed.

Anyhow, I think I owe Arizona and Align a big apology, my bad about concluding the regulators are not up to task. Now it is not a case of faulty receiver or whatever, I sent them (2 of them)in for checks and both are fine. They just won't work with regulators for some strange reasons, 29mhz 149DP dual conversion. It is just strange that they will work in planes with BECs like Castle Creation, Medusa etc and not in helis with regulators. I am not going to point fingers, but wanted to post this so that all can know what solved my problem at the very least. Futaba folks did tell me that they can't support me if I use third party stuff with their receivers when I asked about regulator compatibility. Oh well, I decided to change more of my stuff to third party ones lol, solved the issue and that will count for me as a big step forward. I think I can sleep better already.
06-03-2008 11:33 AM
 
 
hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

Quote 
Futaba folks did tell me that they can't support me if I use third party stuff with their receivers when I asked about regulator compatibility.

Futaba doesn't make regulators I don't think. You have no choice other than to use a third party regulator. With that being the case Futaba should at least support you in troubleshooting the input and verifying what the Futaba equipment accepts and tolerates for input. If the regulator you are using is supplying the receiver within it's advertised limits and the receiver locks out than your receiver has a problem. On the other hand if your electrical supply is dirty/noisy due to bad connections, bad battery or your supply is spiking than Futaba is not responsible. I am not implicating anything except that Futaba cannot duplicate the conditions on your heli.

With that said, all Futaba can do is test the components under lab conditions using the proper supply.

I suspect a bad or sensitive receiver that shows good on the bench.

Mike

"Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.
06-03-2008 12:08 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
mmc205
Senior Heliman
Location: Pottstown,PA - USA

I use a 3S lipo with a CC BEC and never have any problems. I've eliminated the switch from the system and used deans power poles for the on/off connection. You could even make a on "plug" like some of the fancy regulators if you please. If you want some redundancy, use two seperate small lipos (2s 1500's maybe) with two seperate CC becs running to two seperate reciever channels. you have a high current (20 amp peaks) redundant system that will cost about $80 and only weigh about 7 oz. I still don't understand why people use $300 regulation systems when they seem to have the same failure rate as a $20 BEC.....
($20 x 2 for CC BEC, $20 x 2 for 8C 2s 1500 lipos)

Heli's don't fly, they beat the air into submission!!
06-03-2008 01:07 PM
 
 
Havoc
Key Veteran
Location: Ky.

A 149DP will not have a problem with either regulator if working properly. But they should be sent in for inspection after a bad crash. Its a PITA but can save money in the long run.
06-04-2008 03:51 AM
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Precisely my point

They were checked and they were returned ok. Both never suffered crashes before, the only crashes they ever had were on regulators. To top it off, they worked flawlessly with Nicad, ESC and BEC (switch and linear) on planes with no issues. Only when I ventured into Align regulator, Arizona and SGP Reactor did I start to get this persistent lockout issue. Cut the story in short, everything is fine with no regulator, once put in, lockout, logic tells me the last item I did caused it, hence my "mistaken" conclusion that the regulator must be at fault. AND yet hell, everyone else around me is using it with no issue. That was a real PITA for me then.
06-04-2008 11:20 AM
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

A couple summers ago I had issues with an EVO 50 and PCM lockout. I finally traced it down to a new metal swashplate I had installed. I changed back to the stock swash and all was well. A lot of things can come together and cause issues and we think it is only one thing that was changed when in fact it was several.

TM

"If you can do it, it ain’t bragging." - Will Rogers
06-04-2008 01:52 PM
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Well, I did change fuel tubings and added new rubber soles for the skid if that counts. Actually I dun quite see how a metal swash plate will cause problem, unless the metal is contacting metal, then that swash is not so fit for purpose ain't it?
06-04-2008 04:02 PM
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

Quote 
Actually I dun quite see how a metal swash plate will cause problem, unless the metal is contacting metal, then that swash is not so fit for purpose ain't it?

Are you serious Dude? What do you think the Heim ball in the swashplate is made of, plastic? What do you think the mainshaft is made of? They're both made of steel and so is the ball bearing that the aluminum inner ring is rotating in.

Think about it.

"If you can do it, it ain’t bragging." - Will Rogers
06-04-2008 09:43 PM
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Ok, I did not make myself clear enough, I did not mean the part that sits onto the main shaft. What I meant to say is that if the metal swash plate is definitely not binding making any sort of metal or CF contact other than its designated main shaft sitting, and yet it is emitting RF noises, then it doesn't quite serve its purpose as an upgrade. The only area I can think of is the swash guide (RJX is a CF one) that is constantly making contact with the swash guide pin.

Anyhow, I know what you are saying and It is definitely not those other items causing the problem.

- 2 different Helis involved
- Both heli flown successfully on Nicad with zero issues
- Both heli crashed once changed to regulator and lipo setup only, no other parts changed
- 90 size Eagle changed back to nicad and flying nicely again, no parts revert like the example you gave
- 50 size RJX flying nicely so far with new 2.4 Ghz receiver and regulator

Could Carbon Fiber blades be making any sort of radio blanket over PCM systems? I noticed my lockouts were all in such a orientation where the heli is on my northeast corner doing a turn back towards myself, it locks out at the point when the heli is sideway facing me.
06-05-2008 06:51 AM
 
 
Rajun151
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston, Texas

Sorry to hear about your crashes and the subsequent trouble shooting headaches.. I can definitely feel you pain, and not to bash futaba, but I had a 9Z WCII that I purchased new myself that ended up taking out a fully loaded Predator Gasser Camera ship, bang up another Predator Gasser pretty good, multiple lockouts (some recovered, some ending up in crash damage), and one that totally destroyed a Raptor 50 with 2 9252 servos and a GY-601 before I finally through in the towel with that radio..

Don't get me wrong.. I troubleshooted and tried everything to get it fixed and working.. Multiple different receivers in different helis.. New 50MHz ham band TX module and RX. Sent the transmitter and receivers to Futaba multiple occasions and it all checked out, yet it kept locking out at completely random times.
At the end of the day, it had to be the transmitter, especially after borrowing a friends TX and never taking a hit. Futaba was getting so sick of me they finally sent me a brand new 9ZwcII. I promptly sold it and all my futaba gear and went back to JR. Have not had a hit since..

I am sure most of Futaba's gear is great now, as it probably was then, but I had a "ghost in the machine" and it was killing me - wait, my wallet!

Glad to hear you have it all sorted out... There is nothing worse than flying with equipment you don't trust, or don't understand where the fault is..

David
06-17-2008 09:35 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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HIROBO Freya - Sceadu - Shuttle > Pissed! - First flight with Arizona Regulator ended in lockout crash, barely a min in air...
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