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HIROBO Freya - Sceadu - Shuttle > Pissed! - First flight with Arizona Regulator ended in lockout crash, barely a min in air...
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Alright, I just about had it with regulators.

My experience hasn't been good at all apart from the regulated voltage they give when things dun go wrong.

First one was with Align 2in 1 regulator. Experienced 4 lockouts in a short 2 weeks but was lucky to save it as the lockouts lasted only 1-2 seconds.

Diagnosed the problem to be Align regulator as swapping a nicad in in place of it resolved the strange lockout issue. Because my 90 size heli balances perfectly with a lithium battery, I took the advice of many who swears by Fromeco. I ordered one and waited 3 weeks, meanwhile I settled for a basic 2400 Nicad 4.8 volt. Those 3 weeks were the best as I experienced no issue, sure the voltage sag with each flight, I could tell the difference in stopping a punch but I could fly as hard as hell and had no issues.

Then came yesterday, my Fromeco pack arrived, I proceeded to mount the system on and marvelled at the way the heli balanced now with a weight savings of about 150grams, no more routine charges after 3-4 flights etc. Went out early this morning anticipating a fun day of flying and testing out the new regulator (that is pretty hyped about). Filled up my heli with nitro, spool her up nice and proper and proceeded a hover test, mild figure 8. I grew the 8s bigger and faster and started noticing something amiss. because it was very slight delay to my input, I brushed it off as first flight of the day jittery. As soon as I thought that, my beautiful heli locked out in a left turn of a 8 on the right side. No control, nothing, engine did not go into failsafe as set. heli just went crashing down. Nothing I did in air on the controls responded BUTTTTTT, when the heli was still in idle up eating up the ground, It responded to my throttle hold and went into idle. Walking towards it, I discovered I have control and engine was still idling away. Damn... that was less than 2 minutes in the air with the new regulator.

Damage:
- Vblades
- Tail Boom holder
- main Mast
- Flybar
- Possibly Blade grip shaft
- Fiberglass Canopy
- Receiver/battery mount

Setup:
SST Eagle 2 98EX
Futaba PCM 149
Futaba GV 1 with Futaba 9202 for throttle
Futaba GY401
JR 8715 for collective
Futaba 9202 for cyclics
Futaba 9254 for rudder
Fromeco Arizona Regulator with 2s2170 Flightpower 25c Lipo with pin switch and upgraded AWG dean connectors


WHAT the hell is wrong with it?!?!? The only difference of the above setup from 3 weeks of blissful flying is the addition of Fromeco Regulator. Amp draw test on the bench working all controls I could manage max out at 4.1 amp and there is no way I will fly like that. Load in the air? What gives?
12-23-2007 06:14 AM
 
 
Dr.Ben
Elite Veteran
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Email Mike or Kurt at Fromeco and tell them what happened. If the regulator is indeed faulty, I would wager that they will try to make things right for you. I would be very surprised if it was a lockout for two reasons. First, you had the FS set up correctly per your verbage. Second, it takes something akin to a Tesla coil mounted in a model to get a 149DP receiver to lock out.

Ben Minor
12-23-2007 06:30 AM
 
 
Gary Jenkins
Elite Veteran
Location: Wilmington, DE

How close is the regulator mounted to the receiver, antenna, etc? Can you post a photo of your electronics setup? Did you do a range check with and without the regulator?
12-23-2007 02:52 PM
 
 
psych-lick
Veteran
Location: Austin, TX - USA

Do you have a loaded volt meter? If so, plug it into a receiver channel and check the voltage under a 1-2 amp load. This should tell you if the Arizona is working properly.

-Jeff T.
12-23-2007 03:28 PM
 
 
wannabfishin02
Senior Heliman
Location: barnhart, Mo-63012

Im not doubting you or trying to start anything here in any way, but two regulators, both different brands faulty? Seems like some pretty long shot odds. The fact that you didnt go into fail safe baffles me though. Also the fact that you didnt have any problems with the 4.8 battery without a regulator baffles me. Was the battery used on the regulators the same battery on both? Could it be a bad battery? I would contact fromeco also, but I would think the odds of both regulators being faulty would be pretty slim. It would be pure guess work at this stage, I think you going to have to do some process of elimination here to narrow things down.

A bad day of flying is better than a good day of work
12-23-2007 03:36 PM
 
 
Alan Szabo Sr
Key Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Could it be the reciever not liking the higher voltage and current supplied by the aling and Arizona regulators? I would guess that there suppling a 5.3 to 5.5 DC voltage, where the nicad is going to be 5.2 off the charger but down to 4.8 to 4.9 under a load after a min of flight. But with two regulats given you lock out, I would expand the searches for the problem a little further.
12-23-2007 03:39 PM
 
 
Ruff
Veteran
Location: Queen Creek, AZ

It sounds like you have something other amiss than the regulator. I would suspect a faulty filter in the receiver rather than the regulator.

Ruff

http://srcha.com
12-23-2007 03:48 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rob_k
Senior Heliman
Location: Denver, CO

It sounds to me like the regulator is not your problem. I would look for other sources of noise like something metal rubbing on something carbon, bad bearings, etc.
12-23-2007 04:41 PM
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Hi all,

thanks for the suggestions, it is driving me nuts too.

I am not trying to fault Fromeco or Align for that matter, it is the mystery behind it that is driving me nuts and costing unnecessary repairs.

With Align 2 in 1, I used it for like 2 weeks with no issue till the change of the collective servo to JR8715 and the addition of Governor Futaba GV1. I will get lockouts that lasted at most 1-2 seconds and I will regain control. I noted it was supplying 5.7 volts continously. Also, I tested it with 4 amp load cycling all sticks on the bench, the voltage never fluctuated and of course I never suceeded in replicating the problem. 4 lockouts total in air experience, 2 over tic tocs, 1 over stall turn and 1 just slow FF (first flight of the day on fresh charge)

I then switched to Nicad 2400 4.8v direct to receiver for 2 weeks after having ordered Fromeco to try out. I had a total of 16-20 flights in total using the Nicad and no issues were encountered wahtsoever. Even sustained Tic toc for as long as my mind can allow did not give the heli any problem. I do discipline myself to charge my nicad after every 2 flights (phobic precautionary)

Now with Fromeco, total experience measuring 1 min in the air and countless hours on the bench trying to replicate the problem. I tried some of the methods suggested. I load it up with furious cyclics getting about 4 amp and measured voltage at the same time, noted no real fluctuations worth recording (voltage set to 5.65, I see 5.65-5.62). I did not suceed in replicating the lockout.

In both regulator cases, the failsafe I set did not go into play, engine was running along like nothing happened. That is the baffling part but if you do a search on Align 2 in 1, this is actually rather common. Fromeco wise, I have the impression that it is working very well for 99% of the people if not all. I am pretty upset I fall into that 1 percent sigh...

Anyhow the align 2 in 1 was mounted underneath the receiver and battery mount which was later switched to another spot behind the collective servo. The Fromeco was mounted on top of the Elevator servo. I have seen pics of different installation before, I think the current position I have should be plenty far from the receiver. Range check with collapsed antenna is especially good, over 100m with engine on and off (slightly worse off only with engine on).

I am writing to Futaba to see if they know anything.
12-23-2007 05:05 PM
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Rob,

Dun think it is bad bearings as they were new or noises. They should have affected me when I was using Nicad receiver pack.

I am not trying to say regulators are definitely the problem, but swapping them out for 4.8v did give me some reliable flight time whifch baffles the entire thing even more.
12-23-2007 05:09 PM
 
 
rob_k
Senior Heliman
Location: Denver, CO

The fact that it is not easily replicated on the bench indicates to me that it is a vibration related or noise issue. Maybe the regulator isn't the issue but, faulty wiring from your 7.4V battery, etc.
12-23-2007 06:39 PM
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Ok, I just tested my 7.4 volts battery and all three gave me sustained amp run of 15-20 amps for well over 5 minutes. With them 80% depleted, I put em on the Arizona and I did not notice any lockout. I tried running of the the lipo down completely and the Arizona simply did not want to give up at all, all the servos needed was some hand assistance to move but they still work in principle.


I think I am gonna check more on voltage to receiver route. I did try an experiment with the Align 2 in1 before and found that by connecting a separate 4.8 pack parallel with it, I was also able to fly during that experimental period without any issues. That parallel part effectively brings down the voltage to 5.3 volt instead of the usual regulated 5.7 volt.
12-24-2007 12:26 AM
 
 
Jafa
Elite Veteran
Location: Sydney, Australia

We had an Arizona go bad in an Avant

During a roll the heli did some crack on the aileron by it's self - it was very short so we carried on

Then on the approach to the landing, just for a split second I thought my friend had lost it, he was worried too, but it came good at the last moment

Very next flight take off into hover and the cyclics were doing crack by them selves - landed and moth balled the model for the weekend (it was a trip away from home)

The Arizona was returned for service, they advised that the leads from one component were not fully into the solder - they serviced the unit and advised they had changed their manufacturing process to avoid this in future

So it is possible that there is a fault with your Arizona
But it certainly is an excellent regulator


Lepton | TRex600Nitro | Sceadu | Freya | Avant | Predator Carbon Max
12-24-2007 12:36 AM
 
 
shauntot
Heliman
Location: Singapore

just wanted to share my input. what radio system are u using? if you're using g3, be mindful that it's more sensitive to interference than other types. if you had any metal to metal rubbing even very slightly it will cause a lockout. how do i know? i just crashed my freya twister last week, nothing new was put on it except for a new g3 rx that came with a 12fgh. everything was still in the same layout as it was before when it was using a JR rx and tx.

i was up about 40ish feet just hovering for about a minute and getting the feel of the new radio, then proceeded to idle up and decided to do some fast pitch pumps to wake up the engine. heli suddenly dipped it's nose as if going for forward flight and all controls including throttle went to failsafe, all i could do watch as it went down.

crash damage inspection - nothing out of the ordinary, broken lower carbon frames, skids, all the way to the tail. carbon boom was in 3 pieces. wrong thing that we missed doing first was a range check, especially with a new rx/tx system. so no matter how ironic, we did one right after the crash. antenna off from the tx, distance was a mere 30ish steps and the controls were going haywire. looked for any possible intereference source, and we saw that the switch for the arizona reg was zip-tied on the floating angle which is also made of metal. nothing else on the heli is on metal-to-metal so we suspected this.

pic of the before, with the arizona pin/flag switch zip-tied to the floating angle



now, rebuilt the heli, switched to 2400 sub-c nicads and a regular heavy duty futaba switch, it is now flying nicely. rx/tx is ok.

~~~~ Hirobo R/F Freya Twister & 12FGH~~~~
12-24-2007 10:00 AM
 
 
edball flies!
Heliman
Location: Singapore

Hey Shauntot,

Are you absolutely positive that the metal switch rubbing is the cause?

Right now, part of me wanted to troubleshoot and resolve this but part of me am too bloody scared to even try flying with the same regulator again. I am gonna send it in and see what they say, at least a health check on the system first.

I think my problem is slightly different from yours. Yours went into failsafe (PCM lockout). Mine did not. It simply offers no control but the engine is still running in idle up mode not going into failsafe as set. It is not battery failsafe because I should have all other controls except throttle.

I am getting myself an eagle tree to test with a nicad first. I need to exactly understand what kind of current and voltage is going through the system. Will keep all posted.
12-26-2007 10:13 AM
 
 
NINJA RICK
Heliman
Location: maryland

THEORY,, ONE POSSIBLE CAUSE.........

SEND YOUR 401 TO BE CHECKED BY FUTABA, THE SYMPTOMS YOU DESRCIBE ARE VERY

MUCH LIKE WHAT MY 401 DID BEFORE IT FAILED.

hope this helps.

WISE OLD MASTER
12-27-2007 06:54 AM
 
 
shauntot
Heliman
Location: Singapore

edball - well that's what we suspected, because there was nothing else on the heli that was on metal to metal contact. once i rebuilt the heli, everything was exactly the same as it was, sans the arizona. simply replaced it with a sub-c pack and everything's been fine. dunno, the local expert here mentioned that G3 is really more sensitive to these things, he's the best flier in the philippines and been flying futaba for as long as i can remember so i trust him

sorry to veer off topic - where in singapore are you from? i'm from bishan but im just here in the philippines right now for the holidays

~~~~ Hirobo R/F Freya Twister & 12FGH~~~~
12-28-2007 02:01 AM
 
 
slant911
Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, NV. Hirobo, Magnum Fuels, MAH

Definitely call Kurt or Mike at Fromeco. THose guys are first class and top notch in customer service. They will make it right for you I have no doubt whatsoever.


John B. McNamara
12-29-2007 03:56 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rgl726
Senior Heliman
Location: cebu city, philippines

just use nicd less complicated less problem!!!

its better to carry an extra weight than to crash!!!

hirobo freya op, o.s. 91 sz, fun-tech A382, funkey
12-29-2007 11:47 AM
 
 
baddraptor
Elite Veteran
Location: valencia, ca- usa

Quote 
With Align 2 in 1, I used it for like 2 weeks with no issue till the change of the collective servo to JR8715 and the addition of Governor Futaba GV1. I will get lockouts that lasted at most 1-2 seconds and I will regain control. I noted it was supplying 5.7 volts continously.

Start with the other items you added.

**Unattended children will be givin a shot of espresso and a puppy**
12-30-2007 11:17 PM
 
 
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HIROBO Freya - Sceadu - Shuttle > Pissed! - First flight with Arizona Regulator ended in lockout crash, barely a min in air...
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