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Off Topics Jokes-Puzzles-Riddles > Feynman's Airplane or...... "Airplane on a Scale"
 
 
Mark C
Key Veteran
Location: Houston, TX - USA

Feynman's Airplane

No, this plane is NOT on a friggin treadmill. But it is likely to generate some responses that are just as wacky.

I named this puzzle after another brain teaser made famous by a really cool Physicist twenty something years ago. After I got my head around the original brain teaser I had to throw everything I had been taught up to that time about airfoil lift away and re-think it. It was certainly the cause for several intense after hours discussions between me and my college physics professor which is likely still scratching his head.

The original puzzle was made popular by Richard Feynman and dubbed Feynman's Sprinkler It is my understanding that he did not originally come up with it but he published it somewhere and was able to explain the reasoning behind it and somewhere along the way his name got attached to it.

So if you followed those links and got your head around his sprinkler dilemma, I want you to consider a couple more scenarios before we fly his airplane:

1. Would it (the sprinkler) behave any different if you were using air instead of water?
2. If you attach the hose to the OUTPUT of your ShopVac (the side that blows air) and laid the hose on the floor and turned it on, it would certainly whip around on the floor like a loose firehose. But if you attached it to the INPUT side (the side that sucks air) instead, would it still whip around the floor like loose firehose?

So now for Feynman's Airplane.

We have a Cessna - Feynman's "magical" Cessna. Of it's many magical qualities it has invisible pressure sensors all over every inch of it's wings both above and below to record the pressure differential between the top and the bottom of the wings. The sensors make these measurements magically without disturbing the aerodynamics of the aircraft whatsoever.

We fly Feynman's magical Cessna and record the pressure differential above and below the wings on a magical computer - or maybe even a DELL XPS. Now we know the EXACT profile of the pressure differential over every inch of the airfoil during flight.

Did I mention that Feynman's magical Cessna was hollow and made of uncrushable unobtainum? Because it's skin is so strong and uncrushable it requires absolutely no ribbing or bracing of the wing or airframe. If you sit in the cockpit you can see right down the inside of the wings. It's bada$$.

Now, we take our special unobtainium drill and drill the TOP (and only the top) of the wing until it looks like Swiss cheese. Literally thousands of holes all over the top of the wing. We leave the bottom of the wing alone. And we didn't damage any of the magical sensors either.

We now take and attach our ShopVac model 747 to the Cessna using a large diameter ultra lightweight, ultra flexible hose made of uncrushable unobtainum II. The ShopVac 747 is sitting outside the Hangar and it's exhaust is in no way interacting with our aircraft. Only it's intake is attached to the airframe. We are going to create a massive vacuum inside the hollow Cessna.

Now with the Cessna anchored to a large scale (it's propeller engine not running), we power up the ShopVac 747 a massive vacuum develops inside the airframe and air begins getting sucked into all of the thousands of holes on the top of the wing of the Cessna.

We then adjust the ShopVac 747 until the computer reading the sensors tells us that we have the EXACT same pressure differential above and below the wing that was measured during our original data gathering flight. We even go around and drill extra holes on the top of the wing and patch up some holes if necessary until the computer shows us that every inch of the profile shows to have the EXACTLY the SAME pressure differential profile as originally measured above and below the wing during flight.

With it all adjusted to perfection, we now grab up our trusty scientific notebook, run over to the display on the large digital scale and record the weight of the aircraft on the scale.

So the real puzzle here is what are we going to see on the scale?

Are we going to see:

A. The Cessna is actually buoyant and would suck it's way into the air if we released its anchors.

B. The Cessna has sucked it's way to perfect neutral buoyancy and the scale reads nearly zero plus or minus some spooge.

C. The scale hardly shows any difference in the weight of the Cessna whether the ShopVac 747 is running or not. Even if we run the Shop Vac 747 wide open and get twice the pressure differential profile - we read no real difference on the scale.


What's the answer?


Mark C.


EDIT To Clarify the question:

If you have an airplane stationary on a scale without the engine running and you are able to "artificially" recreate the EXACT pressure differential conditions found on the wing during flight WITHOUT moving air across the wing surface, what would you observe?
12-04-2007 06:54 PM
 
 
Droid
Elite Veteran
Location: Deep down in the Southwest- UK

I would say that your medication has either

a) Run out
b) Too low a dosage
c) Too high a dosage
or
d) You're not taking enough water with it!!
12-04-2007 07:02 PM
 
 
Bad Karma
Veteran
Location: UK

I have a feeling its C, because (if I have read that right) the rest of the plane is unchanged, you have only accounted for about half the lift there (perhaps...)

If you have matched the pressure gradients over the top surface, you arnt doing anything about the bottom surface, you would need to increase the pressure under the wing also.... all that would happen is that the air near the aircraft (including that around the edges of the wing and under the wing) would push around to the top surface where the low pressure region is.

In normal flight, the forward movement away from the low pressure region prevents that from happening, maintaining the pressure differential, and thus maintaining lift.

But I agree, get on the meds.
12-04-2007 07:27 PM
 
 
Mark C
Key Veteran
Location: Houston, TX - USA

Quote 

I have a feeling its C, because (if I have read that right) the rest of the plane is unchanged, you have only accounted for about half the lift there (perhaps...)

If you have matched the pressure gradients over the top surface, you arnt doing anything about the bottom surface, you would need to increase the pressure under the wing also.... all that would happen is that the air near the aircraft (including that around the edges of the wing and under the wing) would push around to the top surface where the low pressure region is.

In the riddle, I was matching the diff between the top and bottom so in the end you would indeed have the same pressure differential from top to bottom of airfoil as you did while flying.

But if you believe that there would only be 1/2 the lift then do you think I could just crank up the ShopVac 747 and get the Cessna to suck it's way up off the floor? Provided of course that we remove the anchors.

Hmmmmm.....

When you run your ShopVac out in your garage and point the end up at the sky does it appear to weigh less?
12-04-2007 09:40 PM
 
 
GimbalFan
Elite Veteran
Location: Copter County, Nv

I like potatoes!


I like Richard Feynman too. I miss that guy. Great lecturer -- higher concepts clearly presented in layman's terms. I understand he liked potatoes too.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
12-05-2007 02:28 AM
 
 
cessna151
Veteran
Location: Indiana, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy

Quote 

I would say that your medication has either

a) Run out
b) Too low a dosage
c) Too high a dosage
or
d) You're not taking enough water with it!!


First, i say E) All the above

Second, having no forward flight will completely change everything about the aerodynamics of the plane.

Third, the shop vac would be producing thrust from the exhaust so it depends on which way the exhaust is pointing.

--Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!--
12-05-2007 04:07 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Mark C
Key Veteran
Location: Houston, TX - USA

Quote 
Third, the shop vac would be producing thrust from the exhaust so it depends on which way the exhaust is pointing.


The ShopVac 747 is sitting outside the Hangar and it's exhaust is in no way interacting with our Cessna on the scale.


Hmmmm.... No one seems to be able to get their head around this one. Maybe I will revist it on another day.
12-05-2007 04:40 PM
 
 
cessna151
Veteran
Location: Indiana, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy

Quote 
No one seems to be able to get their head around this one.

To many "magical qualites."

I bet willy would know the answer!

--Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!--
12-05-2007 05:02 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
trashmanf
Heliman
Location: Kent, WA

this is a tough riddle, but I'm pretty sure the answer would be (c)

similar to if you have a truck full of geese (magical geese?) that weighs 1000lbs, with 100lbs worth of geese in it, you start driving and all the geese take off flying around inside the truck's trailer (closed semi trailer) then the truck still weighs 1000lbs.

also, much (MOST) of what causes a plane's lift isn't the pressure differential, but rather the angle of attack... wrap your mind around THAT , medication boys!
12-05-2007 08:27 PM
 
 
Mark C
Key Veteran
Location: Houston, TX - USA

trashmanf
Quote 
this is a tough riddle, but I'm pretty sure the answer would be (c)

Actually it's a illegal narcotic induced hallucenation. And indeed "C" may be the answer.

Quote 
similar to if you have a truck full of geese (magical geese?)

Woo Hoo!!!! Are we talking golden egg laying geese? Surely the truck would get heavier as it filled up with golden eggs!!!

Quote 
also, much (MOST) of what causes a plane's lift isn't the pressure differential, but rather the angle of attack... wrap your mind around THAT , medication boys!

When you say "angle of attack" do you mean like the "skipping sone" theory? NASA indeed documents that as "Incorrect Theory #2" please take a look.

cessna151
Quote 
To many "magical qualites."

Actually all the "magical qualites" are there to simplify the situation for your benefit.

But with the problem simply laid out as follows:

If you have an airplane stationary on a scale without the engine running and you are able to "artificially" recreate the EXACT pressure differential conditions found on the wing during flight WITHOUT moving air across the wing surface, what would you observe?

A. You would see the aircraft attain enough lift to rise into the air if we released it.

B. You would see it attain neutral buoyancy and the scale reads somewhere around zero.

C. You would not be able to see any signifigant change in the reading of the scale.


So yes....let's go ahead and call this "Airplane on a scale"
12-06-2007 01:34 AM
 
 
rogeroverout
Heliman
Location: DFW area, TX

I am going to try... (C).

Because, no matter what your theory of lift, ultimately air must be displaced (accelerated if you prefer) opposite the direction of lift (downward in normal flight) to generate lift. Think Newton.

With the magic vac (or whatever pressure fields), this does not seem to be occurring. No air accelerating/displaced downward, no lift.
12-06-2007 03:37 AM
 
 
CK_
Senior Heliman
Location: Redondo Beach, CA

Quote 
also, much (MOST) of what causes a plane's lift isn't the pressure differential, but rather the angle of attack... wrap your mind around THAT , medication boys!
Quote 
Because, no matter what your theory of lift, ultimately air must be displaced (accelerated if you prefer) opposite the direction of lift (downward in normal flight) to generate lift. Think Newton.
Oh no, not again. Read my posts here:
http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t391030p1/
Or better yet, read this:
http://amasci.com/wing/rotbal.html

Here's my explanation. If you used a magical system to recreate the exact pressure distribution around the entire shape of the airplane you will get a very similar amount of lift but not the exact same amount. You wouldn't be able to recreate the skin friction of the air sliding along the surface. Skin friction acts tangent to the surface and static pressure acts perpendicular to the surface. Skin friction affects lift but only very slightly. If we ignore the skin friction and call the weight of the plane W then:

A. If your vacuum house outlet was pointed out the bottom of the plane then you essentially have a complicated ducted fan producing upward thrust equal to W and the plane would hover.

B. If your vacuum house is flexible and hangs below the plane and the vacuum source is in a hanger on the ground then the plane will produce "lift" equal to W. The hose would pull down on the airplane with a force of W due to the low pressure inside it and the weight on the plane's wheels will remain unchanged. The hose would pull up on the ground with a force of W.

C. If your vacuum is the same as in B. but exits the top of the plane then the pressure will cause a "lift" of W. The hose will pull up with a force of W so the total force lifting the plane would be 2W and the plane would accelerate upwards. The tension in the hose would be W.

D. If your vacuum is the same as in B. but the hose exits either forward or aft and the airplane is restrained from moving forward or aft but is free to rise and fall then the pressure will produce a "lift" of W which will be balanced by the weight and the airplane will hover. The hose would pull on the plane with a force of W that is balanced by restraint used to hold the plane forward and aft.

E. If your vacuum source was on board the airplane and all the air sucked in disappeared into a magical black hole then the pressure would produce a "lift" of W and the plane would hover on its own.
12-06-2007 12:10 PM
 
 
Mark C
Key Veteran
Location: Houston, TX - USA

Cool CK_.

If you buzzed the thread you will see that the output of the vacuum hose is.

Quote 
The ShopVac 747 is sitting outside the Hangar and it's exhaust is in no way interacting with our Cessna on the scale.

Some how it all went right past ya. Let's blame that on my crappy writing style for now. Anyways, the point of having the ShopVac 747 totally removed from the aircraft is so that we suck air into all the thousands of holes on top of the wing and the exhaust from that is expelled in a manner that does not affect the aircraft whatsoever. It runs down the hose to the ShopVac 747 sitting outside the hangar and gets blown outside.

So I'm not sure which of your A,B,C,D or E to choose from.

Once again:

If you have an airplane stationary on a scale without the engine running and you are able to "artificially" recreate the EXACT pressure differential conditions found on the wing during flight WITHOUT moving air across the wing surface, what would you observe?
12-06-2007 03:11 PM
 
 
CK_
Senior Heliman
Location: Redondo Beach, CA

Yeah, I saw the explanation on the shopvac location. I was just adding a few more options for the sake of completeness. If you limit the answers to the shopvac being completely separated from the plane then my guesses are B, C, and D depending on where the hose exits the plane.
12-06-2007 07:40 PM
 
 
Mark C
Key Veteran
Location: Houston, TX - USA

Quote 
If you limit the answers to the shopvac being completely separated from the plane then my guesses are B, C, and D depending on where the hose exits the plane.

So you think that where the ShopVac747 hose attaches to the airframe has a bearing on the weight of the aircraft on the scale?

Not a chance.
12-06-2007 08:02 PM
 
 
Pistol_Pete
Elite Veteran
Location: Tampa Bay non-Buccaneer

Quote 
Hmmmm.... No one seems to be able to get their head around this one. Maybe I will revist it on another day.

Quote 
If you buzzed the thread you will see that the output of the vacuum hose is.

Quote 
Some how it all went right past ya.

Quote 
Let's blame that on my crappy writing style for now.

ok.

<><>...the lunatic is in my head...<><>
05-18-2008 03:03 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
darrens
Key Veteran
Location: United Kingdom

I know the answer for sure, I do, I do, I do!!!!!!!

The answer is......................................

.................


..................


Wait for it!


.....................


....................


The answer is.....WHO GIVES A ****!!!!!!!!!!!!GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!

WHO WOULD BE INTERESTED IN A STATIONARY, FLYING PLANE?

you need to get out more, find a hobby, meet women or go fly your model heli

He who dies with the most toys is the winner!
05-18-2008 08:12 PM
 
 
trashmanf
Heliman
Location: Kent, WA

well after reading this post ^ it becomes clear, the airplane would take off, because the treadmill wouldnt be able to keep up
05-19-2008 09:18 PM
 
 
vinver
Heliman
Location: Enfield,NS Canada

Hyneman's Heli

Why not change the conundrum to Hyneman's Heli and send it off to Mythbusters to test the theory.... Those guys are great!!
05-19-2008 10:02 PM
 
 
spork
Veteran
Location: Mountain View, CA

I have to confess I'm struggling a bit with this one. I know that "get a life" is not the correct answer. I believe that if all the hoses were outside the plane pointing in (rather than in the wing pointing out) they would be able to produce a pressure profile that would lift the plane just as the aerodynamic lift would. I'm not so sure the ports through the wings would do the same thing.

I should be able to figure it out, but I'm feeling too old and lazy (stupid?) at the moment.


Thinking back on this, there are some subtleties worth thinking about. With ports surrounding the wing, you end up producing a flow that still differs from that which would be seen in normal flight. For example the behavior at the leading and trailing edge would be very different. Nevertheless, I think the above still holds to first order.
05-19-2008 10:05 PM
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