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Aerobatic 3D Contest > Piro funnels

MrMel
Elite Veteran
Location: Lidingo, Sweden

What the ... is up with Piro funnels.

I can do piro flips, good in one direction, ok in the other.
I can do funnels, all orientations.
I can change directions during the funnel.

I can do ok slow piro-funnels (slow enough so I can "control" it)

But I cant for my life get the hang of doing piro funnels with faster piro rate.

Just cant do it.

Another thing, doing upright pirofunnel I see most doing the funnel counter-clockwise while stirring clockwise, piro is going counter-clockwise.

However,
I can do em slow, but then I do the funnel clockwise and stirring clockwise still counter-clockwise piros.

Is that why I have trouble with them perhaps? Have I screwed up my brain?

I have countless hours in the sim with NO progress what-so-ever.
Getting really annoyed of them.

12-02-2007 08:06 PM

Olli-Pekka Mahrberg
Senior Heliman
Location: Finland, Joensuu

I've got the same problem. Slow goes but fast doesn't. Usually it starts to do piroflip or some else piro manouver or crashes to the ground. I think it's difficult to give any advice on this manouver.

-op-

12-03-2007 02:58 PM

HOMEPAGE

MrMel
Elite Veteran
Location: Lidingo, Sweden

a couple of beer's perhaps to soften the "brain" will help...

12-03-2007 02:59 PM

MrMel
Elite Veteran
Location: Lidingo, Sweden

I figured out why its so hard for me.

In my backbone, from learning piro-flips I have "Tail left = Cyclic left", thats how I learned my timing from start.

Now all of the sudden Tail DOWN = Cyclic Left.

Thats whats screws up my timing, so I guess its only to try, try, try try, try, try try again... and again. and ....

12-05-2007 04:59 AM

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Are you doing them upright or inverted?

I first learned 'em inverted because it was easier to sync my stir with like the first half of piroflips - Once I had the timing and feel down I learned the other half of the "horizontal piroflip" by giving a bigger stir to piroflip it to upright and continue it around the other way for inside/outside piro 8s while I'm already in the groove inverted so I can just continue that groove around upright without having to think and stress about it so much - It really is easy to just think of it as stretched out horizontal piroflips this way as it's all the same on the sticks - After inside/outside piro8s you can continue on around with the inside part for upright pirofunnels

12-05-2007 03:35 PM

MrMel
Elite Veteran
Location: Lidingo, Sweden

Im trying both without luck

12-05-2007 04:30 PM

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Heh - Well try sticking to inverted for awhile where the direction of your stir matches the rotation of the heli - Upright the heli rotation is opposite of your stir so it mostly just stirs(as in scrambles) your brain

12-05-2007 04:34 PM

subarus
Heliman
Location: South East Asia

I think left-rudder piro flip is 'compatible' with
1) Clockwise (viewed top down), Inverted piro funnel AND
2) Anti clockwise, Upright piro funnels

The reason is, all these 3 maneuvers requires left rudder stick and clockwise stir on cyclic during piroflip, clockwise attention on cyclics during course corrections during both upright and inverted funnels..

I can only do the piroflip and the inverted piro funnel but still working on the upright funnel so experts please advice..

01-14-2008 04:29 AM

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

It just all seems to be in the sync of the stir to me as I can also do CW upright funnels with CW stirs and left piros as well as CCW upright funnels still with CW stirs and left piros - I believe the stir direction depends on the piro direction (CW stir with left piro and CCW stir with right piro) and just shifting the sync of the stir makes the heli travel different directions - Hard to get a mind around it probably easiest to just get on the sim and set some rudder trim and fly the heli around in constant piro and let your fingers figure it out on their own-like then your mind afterwards

01-14-2008 05:33 AM

subarus
Heliman
Location: South East Asia

micro-maniac wrote,"...I can also do CW upright funnels with CW stirs and left piros.."

you are right.. (although it never occured to me prior to this)

1) lets imagine heli moving nose-first, to maintain in CW hurricane, elevator stick need to be Down
2) since this is a left piro, next phase we will see tail down funnel, therefore to maintain in CW funnel the Left cyclic is needed
3) next phase is when heli is moving backwards (tail-first), to main tain the circle we need elevator stick UP
4) last phase is when heli is nose down, and we need a Right cyclic to maintain a CW upright nose down funnel..

so the right stick movement is Down,Left,Up,Right, thus a CW stir !!!

but using the same analysis... an upright CCW funnel also requires a CW stir!!!

now I am confused.. I got to think about this a little bit further..

does it seems like the left piroette requires CW stir regardless of orientation and clockwiseness?

this is interesting discussion.. hopefully I'll be able to solve my problem and finally make progress.

01-14-2008 06:36 AM

subarus
Heliman
Location: South East Asia

ok.. let's see if this explaination make sense to ppl.

Forget piroetting for a moment, for upright CW funnel, Right rudder input is needed for the tail to catchup, this is true for all four nose orientation.

similarly for upright CCW funnel, Left rudder input is required for the tail to catchup.

Now if we throw in piroetting into the equation, the rudder input has to account for the above requirement... that is the reason I was confused..

I think the combination of the above factors makes the direction of stir dependent on the piro rate

01-14-2008 10:47 AM

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

You mean piro direction not piro rate right?

Think like doing non-piro'ing funnels - To get the heli to bank in circular travel you give same or opposite cyclic to the orientation of the heli to the direction of travel depending on upright or inverted bank - Upright bank heli travelling nose forward you give aft cyclic - Upright bank heli travelling left side forward you give right cyclic - Etc - And opposite for inverted bank (which is why inverted seems easier because you match cyclic to the leading side of the heli rather than the trailing - Heli Forward = Fore Cyclic & Heli Backward = Aft Cyclic Etc)

Take something in your hand that you can use as a tangible representation of a heli and rotate it in 90° increments to see what cyclic input is needed to keep the object banking in a funnel in both CW and CCW directions of travel (remember to rotate the object the same direction whether travelling CW or CCW)

You'll find the piro and cyclic sequence are the same and the only difference is the orientation of the heli to the ground in each direction of travel - Left piro travelling CCW the heli rotates from nose-forward to nose-down requiring aft to left cyclic - Travelling CW the heli rotates from nose-forward to nose-up still requiring aft to left cyclic - So the cyclic sequence is the same - Aft Left Fore Right

You just have to get the heli travelling and banked in the direction you desire then the cyclic stir sequence is much the same for all directions of travel - You shift travel direction by momentarily shifting the speed/size/shape of your stir

01-14-2008 03:53 PM

subarus
Heliman
Location: South East Asia

when right stick input for tail to catchup is LESS than left piroett, resulting rudder stick input is left, heli piroetting left, direction of stir is CW

this is where it gets confusing..
when right stick input for tail to catchup is MORE than left stick input to piroett, resulting rudder stick input is RIGHT, but heli is piroetting LEFT!!! direction of stir is CCW

am I making any sense?

01-14-2008 09:43 PM

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Nope - I think I'm only half following

The only time cyclic stir would be CCW is with right rudder no matter which way you perceive the heli to be piro'ing - And catchup/re-sync I accomplish with the cyclic stir (momentarily change stir speed/size/shape - not direction)

01-14-2008 11:35 PM

Yug
rrProfessor
Location: Niatirb Taerg

I think the problem is simply down to the fact that the brain is naturally comfortable with things being one way rather than the other. A simple example is people being either left or right handed.
I'm fairly comfortable with a CCW piro but a CW piro rapidly gets out of hand as my brain starts fighting what it naturally wants to do. Strangeley enough, for me this even ralates to something simple like an upright tail down CW cone. Just doesn't feel natural.
Solution - bags of practice until the brain is so completely and utterly used to it, it is 2nd nature. We're only human (well most of us)

Team Solar Driftwood

01-15-2008 12:43 AM

subarus
Heliman
Location: South East Asia

We are trying to figure out why the success of piroetting funnel is dependent on piro rate.

I had the same problem, but could not understand why until now. But now I think I am beginning to get it. not 100% sure though

In certain combinations (refer to previous posts containing gory details), an example combo is upright CW funnel with left piroett; depending on the rate of piro (how fast tail spin) and rate of funnel (how fast heli goes in circle), the stirring on the stick could be CCW or CW.

01-15-2008 01:21 AM

Yug
rrProfessor
Location: Niatirb Taerg

Quote
We are trying to figure out why the success of piroetting funnel is dependent on piro rate.

It's to do with how well the brain can adapt to differing rates. Integer rates are always the most doable due to the rhythmic implications but ultimately they need to be practiced at differing piro speeds in both forward and reverse to develop a natural fluidity.

Team Solar Driftwood

01-15-2008 01:29 AM

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Sorry subarus but that is incorrect - The direction of cyclic stir is not related to the piro rate only the piro direction - I suspect what you're experiencing may be a fluke where you're stir just hits some right places at the right times even though you're stirring in the opposite direction - Sorta like frequency/timing light

01-15-2008 01:29 AM

subarus
Heliman
Location: South East Asia

micro-maniac wrote, "The direction of cyclic stir is not dependent on the piro rate only the piro direction "

clarification required.. piro direction as dictated by rudder stick input? OR piro direction as dictated by direction of heli spinning??

I maintain that it is possible to be in a situation where rudder stick is pushed Right BUT the heli is piroetting Left. This occur ONLY when the rate of re-sync (catchup rate) is MORE than the piro rate..

in the above case when heli is actually piroetting left but the rudder stick input is pushed right, CW stir is required. <--- noticed that this is a conflict. we all know that right rudder requires CCW stir!! rite??

however if the catchup rate is LESS than the piro rate, thus to maintain heli piroetting left, the actual rudder stick input is Left. CW stir is required. <-- this is not a conflict.. we all can do this

01-15-2008 01:37 AM

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Piro direction = Rudder input direction

Not perception of piro direction

Piro can seem one direction upright and the other direction inverted but actually piro'ing the same direction in both cases

There is never a reason to change the direction of the piro (rudder input direction) or the direction of the stir to synchronize during a piro-funnel - If you change one you must change both for proper control and the heli will then piro the opposite direction - Changing piro/stir direction is choice not necessity but changing both is necessity not choice - You can't change one without changing the other - (Left Piro = CW Cyclic Stir & Right Piro = CCW Cyclic Stir)

01-15-2008 01:45 AM

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