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Engines Plugs Mufflers Fuel > OS 61 LX-H Needle Setting W/15% CP?
 
 
Slider
Senior Heliman
Location: Orange City, FL

I'm trying to fine tune this engine of mine and want to know what I need to be looking for. I have had my used engine/heli for a month now without any complaints. The engine starts up without hesitation and purrs like a kitten. The problem I have is that when in a hover, the engine will "kick" and the tail twitches. I am pretty sure this comes from running too rich because I can turn the needle until it doesn't have enough power to lift off and it still does it. However, when I go towards the lean side of the needle setting, the smoke diminishes quite significantly. And 3/4 of the way through the tank, the smoke is hardly noticable. To put a twist on things, I just installed a header tank and switched to the Enya #3 plug. So the runs seem more constant. I have yet to drain the main tank during a flight to see how the engine responds to the change over. I have also been running a Hatori two piece muffler with the pressure fitting coming off of the header. I am also using the aluminum gasket with this muffler.

So, if I can lean it out to where I get a nice amout of smoke without this kicking, is the needle rich enough? Should I try some 30% CP to see if and what the difference is? How much smoke is enough?

One more question Is there a low end needle setting on this enging and if so, where is it?

Any other info will be very much appreciated as I am still a newbie

Blue Skies,
Mark
02-05-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Mark,

As you know, I am very familiar with that machine. We broke the 61 LX in very carefully on the bench, and from Day One it has been exemplary.

Anytime you change something (as you did with the muffler), you will usually have to make a change somewhere else (needle settings, etc.). I have always been of the opinion that the pressure fitting on Hatori headers can have a negative impact on engine tuning. Lots of us seal that opening and re-install the fitting on the can (muffler body) somewhere.

Toby fried a plug one day when he tried Mach 7 fuel. I know, I know, everybody says Mach 7 is the same as Cool Power, but you won't convince me. I've seen too much evidence otherwise. I don't want to get into a urination competition over that (or anything else), but the only time that engine EVER burped was when we used different fuel without adjusting the mixture first. Of course, you don't know HOW to adjust the mixture until the engine "talks" to you. In this case, it ran lean and toasted a plug.

What I think you're seeing is a lean high-end coupled with a rich mid-range. Try moving that pressure fitting, then lean the low end no more than a quarter turn, and richen the high end about three clicks. Remember that you always want to get the high end right FIRST; then adjust the low end for a good idle and mid-range.

Also, keep a close eye on that aluminum gasket. They are famous for leaking. An exhaust leak, even a small one, can cause the lean high-end condition you noted.

Steve
02-05-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Rocket
Senior Heliman
Location: Kent UK

Check in the engine manual but the LX is intended (according to my manual) for 10% or less nitro (and a tuned pipe if you want power) which is why it is fitted with a low nitro carb (60 G if I remember I'll check when I get a moment).

We Europeans like low nitro!

In order to run well with lower nitro fuel the engine will have a higher compression (not good for higher nitro) and will be sensitive on the needles with higher nitro.

I ran mine happily on 10% until I switched to the OS91.

Andy
02-05-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

What is a "low-nitro carb"???

Steve
02-05-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

No kidding. Definitely a new one on me...

Steve
02-05-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Slider
Senior Heliman
Location: Orange City, FL

Thanks for the info guys

Steve, I have never had a better running engine in my life! Cudos to you and Toby for breaking it in right! This thing runs like a thoroughbred. I was just wondering if the rudder kick would come from running it a click or two on the rich side. Sometimes I get caught up in the amount of smoke that the guys with the YS engines on 30%.

About the carb, I read over at the OS web site that this is a two needle carb. Now, this might sound stupid, but I can't find the second needle Where is it?

The Hatori, well, that is another story. DavidH told me to use the aluminium gasket as I have done. I fixed the leak with some high temp RTV. I think the pressure fitting is OK for now. I replaced one melted o-ring already. The other one was fine. I don't know what happend. I did run the engine on the lean side for no more than a couple of minutes. I know that is all it takes, but the second o-ring was fine.

All of this has come because I have made so many changes to this setup. First the Hatori, then the Enya #3, then the header tank in the last three weeks. Keeps me on my toes

Anyway, thanks again for the info. If I could only find the other needle...

Blue Skies,
Mark
02-05-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Rocket
Senior Heliman
Location: Kent UK

Give me till the weekend and I'll be able to get my os engine manual and scan it on Monday.
I as I read it the carb supplied on my OS 61LX (a 60 G or H I can't remember which) is designed to meter correctly with low nitro fuel. I haden't heard of it before I sat down and read the manual.

Andy.
02-06-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Mark,

The low-speed needle is one of those two slotted screws in front of the main needle valve. Can't remember now if it's the one on top or bottom- sorry. You still got Toby's #? Call him; I'm sure he remembers.

Steve
02-06-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Slider
Senior Heliman
Location: Orange City, FL

Well, I just got back from the field. It took six clicks to get it to where I think it should be. Somewhere between the second and fourth click it went from blah to wow! I went two more clicks and no more kicking. There is a nice amount of smoke coming out now with a lot of power. I think it will do for now. I was too preoccupied last weekend with a wobble due to a low head speed to concentrate on this problem. But it is better now.

I will look at the two screws. I didn't know they put needles on screws Guess you learn something new ever day. I am guessing the other is a set screw. If not, I will give Toby a call. I still have his number.

Thanks agian
Mark
02-06-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Rocket
Senior Heliman
Location: Kent UK

Low Nitro carb

I got the manual last night. Have a look at http://www.transedeurope.ltd.uk/ima..._manual_p11.jpg and read the section on fuel.

The 60H carb is the low nitro carb that I have on my LX but it looks like some cone with 60G High nitro carbs.

Slider have you found the right screw yet? If not I'll scan the page that shows it in the manual and post it.

Andy.
02-08-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Slider
Senior Heliman
Location: Orange City, FL

I havn't started her up yet since my last post. I was hoping to get some help this weekend at the field. I don't even know if I should mess with it. It has never quit on me, but it sounds like it wants to... but a pic would be very helpful

Thanks,
Mark
02-08-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Rocket
Senior Heliman
Location: Kent UK

Scanned the Carb controls page, have a look at http://www.transedeurope.ltd.uk/ima..._manual_p12.jpg

Also note that the mixture control screw is not really a screw as such, you dont turn it in or out. It has an off centre cam section that moves the brass plate that is connected to the mixture control valve so adjustments are a tiny fraction of a turn which results in a tiny deflection in the brass plate. So a full 360 degree turn will actually put it back where you started. The nut headed bolt at the other end of the brass plate seem to set the drag on the brass plate. I have left this well alone on both my 61LX and 91SX even though the mixture contol screw is very hard to move because I don't want it to move in flight. Just make sure the screw driver you use to adjust the screw is a good fit in the slot.

Hope this helps,

Andy.
02-08-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

<>

Well, there it is, in black and white. My apologies, Rocket, for thinking you were, well... never mind.

Now, I want to know WHY. That carb (at least, the one on the 61LX that Slider has) is a basic two-needle unit with an extended throttle arm. I certainly didn't see anything that would affect, let alone KNOW, how much nitro is in the fuel.

It is possible that the metering slots are cut differently bewteen the two carbs, but I still don't see how the nitro content of the fuel is going to make the carb any less (or more) efficient. Oil content, yes, I could see that. But nitro? Nitro affects combustion, not fuel flow.

If anyone can shed some light on this, I'm all ears. Time to do some investigating...

Steve
02-08-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Rocket
Senior Heliman
Location: Kent UK

As I understand it nitro acts as an efficient oxidiser in the mix so in essence nitro "is liquid oxygen".
To get more torque from the engine we must burn more fuel and although methanol has a relatively wide explosive range there is a limit to the amount of methanol we can put into the cylinder (controlled by the explosive limits ratio with the oxygen the cylinder also contains) and still expect it to explode. Since nitro can take the place of some of the oxygen and is more efficient than the equivalent volume of air (containing the oxygen) we can increase the ratio of methanol to atmospheric air and obtain greater expansion on ignition and thus more pressure/torque e.t.c.
That is why when you increase the nitro you have to open the needles and so why nitro affects the fuel flow the engine requires.

I was thinking that with low nitro the mixture might be more sensitive so the needles etc might give finer control to give more clicks between rich and lean where as with high nitro because the amounts metered by the valves is greater you would want coarser control so you don’t have to make large changes on an over sensitive needle.

Or maybe not.....



I just checked the part numbers all the parts except the carb body and mixture control valve assembly are the same on both the 60G and 60H
02-08-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Slider
Senior Heliman
Location: Orange City, FL

PDF Manual Found

Hehe, I just found/figured out where OS hides their online manuals. For what it is worth, you can find them here:

http://www.osengines.com/manuals/index.html

Seems that the Idle and mid range are set at the factory on my 61 LX-H. It also had a picture of the mixture control screw. I'm not sure I want to play with it though

Blue Skies,
Mark
02-09-2002 Over year old.
 
 
steve9534
Key Veteran
Location: yakima, wa.

Low nitro carb

Rocket has it right. Nitromethane needs less oxygen to burn completely than methanol, which in turn needs less oxygen than gasoline. Because the correct mixtures for each are different, different jetting will be apropriate for each to get the motor to run correctly. This is very apparent in carbs that use fixed jets such as cars and motorcycles. Our models all use adjustable jets-the needle valves, and to a degree will mask the effect of different fuels because one can just turn the needles in or out to compensate. Better is to have a carb that's designed for the fuel in question. Fox used to have a service where they would modify the needle in the carb to match your specific fuel if you sent the motor in to them with some of the fuel to test it with. OS is doing something similar by designing carbs to match the different nitro percentages available in different locales, and/or for different intended users. It doesn't mean the motor won't work with some other fuels, but you'll need to adjust the needles outside of the ideal range to get the right mixture. Hope this helps. Steve.
02-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Steve Campbell
Elite Veteran
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

<<...OS is...designing carbs to match the different nitro percentages...>>

Interesting. You learn something new every day...

Steve
02-12-2002 Over year old.
 
 
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Engines Plugs Mufflers Fuel > OS 61 LX-H Needle Setting W/15% CP?
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