rrTV-PHOTO   New HD TV
HOME   rrTV-PHOTO   GALLERIES   MY GALLERY   HELP-FAQ
myHOME PM pmRR MEMBERS 272 ONLINE 38 EVENTS SEARCH REGISTER  START HERE
 
1 page1535 viewsPOST REPLY
CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters . HeliProz

.
.
Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > JetCopter starting problems...
 
 
Bill Ludwig
Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

I had the ECU go out on my new JetCopter after about 15 starts. It began pumping kerosene before the Powermax fuel even started to flow.

Bob Wilcox sent me a new ECU which corrected that problem, but now there's a new problem. Now, the electric starter engages, and starts to spool up, but almost immediately spools down, not giving the Powermax a fighting chance at starting. I'm not having much luck getting Bob to e-mail or call me back regarding this second problem (he must be really busy), and I wondered if any of you 'Jet Guys' out there have any idea what could be causing this?

I have not yet flown the heli....

Thanks,

- Bill Ludwig
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
AGRAV8
rrProfessor
Location: Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

Bill, you better call RICK !

We had the same problem on HIS machine......it was a ground issue, if I am not mistaken. The solenoids seemed to be out of sequence.....it was heck to diag, and it wound up going to Cali over it. You should have his number in San Antonio. If NOT, you can call me (send a PM for number). James
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Bill Ludwig
Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

No, James, my solenoid problem was caused by a defective ECU. The new ECU solved that. Now, it's a completely different problem as described in my previous post.

Also, I can spin the starter motor up just fine from the GSU ignition button, but when I initiate the auto-start cycle, the starter motor slows down way too early.

The ECU battery is fully charged too.

- Bill
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Phil Cole
Veteran
Location: Redwood City CA

Are you getting a decent RPM reading when you crank manually? Mine will run up to around 15,000 RPM.

What RPM do you see in the auto sequence? It should be around 5,000 before cutting the starter and turning on the Powermax. If you are quick, you can see this in real time on the RUN menu. Otherwise, look at the INFO menu. (I think it's called INFO. It's the menu that shows max RPM, min. RPM, max. temp., min temp, last run time, etc. This menu also tells you the reason for the last shut down, which can be a clue, sometimes.) - Where I'm going with this is that the RPM sensor could be bad, confusing the ECU..

You can also monitor the ECU battery voltage in one of the menus. Make sure it does not drop too much while it's cranking.

You could also have a bad glow plug. The ECU could detect an open circuit and decide not to bother going any further.
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Bill Ludwig
Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the suggestions. I just spoke with Rick (another JetCopter owner) and his start-up sequence is just like mine - maybe it's normal. He said that his also has to 'ramp up' two to three times before the Powermax catches. Strange, because with my first ECU it ramped up just once - to a higher RPM - and caught the first time it ramped up. So, the new question is...how many times should it ramp up prior to catching? What's normal? Why doesn't it spin up faster and catch the first time like the 'defective' ECU did?

Thanks,

- Bill
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
AGRAV8
rrProfessor
Location: Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

Here is an idea.......

Bill: you said that it lights up and spins the correct time and catches on the first try when hooked up to the ground controller.......

Is there a "default" time for the starter to run up set in the ECU onboard, and is that time something that can be changed by programming the ecu?? It seems that the time allowed for the starter motor to bring it up is either less on the ecu than on the ground control unit, or the delay from starter engagement to powermax solenoid activation is too long.

Hope to join in the misery of Jet Coptering soon myself........gonna take the whole fleet getting sold to do it.......but I'm gonna take a crack at it myself........
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Bill Ludwig
Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

AGRAV8 - No, starting from the GSU and the xmtr is exactly the same. What I said was that hitting the 'Ignition' button on the GSU allows it to spin up nicely. That's just a manual way to run the motor.

Phil - I'm getting about 5500 RPM for a high reading during each of the ramp-ups. If it would just spin up a little faster or a little longer it would catch on the first try. You can hear the Powermax popping, but just can quite get it lit with that brief, low RPM.

Sure seems like that dwell time should be adjustable from the GSU....
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Phil Cole
Veteran
Location: Redwood City CA

Bill,

5500 RPM is just fine. It sounds like the sequence is working OK. The starter is meant to cut out just before the gas solenoid opens. Ignition is meant to happen while the turbine is coasting. When it ignites, the starter cranks at full power, and the fuel flow is started.

What's most likely happening is that there is too much Powermax on the first ignition attempt (think of it as too rich if you like). After a few attempts the pressure goes down, so you get less Powermax and it can ignite.

You can try reducing the Gas % setting. The factory setting is 50%, and mine does the same as yours at that setting, particularly if I use a new Powermax can. I use 30% or 40% depending on the weather and how full the Powermax can is. The reduced gas flow only applies while trying to ignite. You will hear the flow pulsing as the solenoid opens and closes. Once the gas ignites, it flows at 100% to preheat the vapouriser.

On a new Powermax can, stop filling when the gas flow starts to slow noticeably. Don't try to cram as much gas in as you can, as it just gets wasted. You definately don't want the tubing to have liquid Powermax in it.

On cold, windy days you'll need a bit more gas, as it can get blown out before the fuel feed starts. Also, I did have one Powermax can which didn't work all that well with the plastic fueling probe that Jetcat supply. I couldn't get enough gas in there to sustain the ignition.

It will take a bit of practice to learn how much Powermax to use to get reliable ignition.

The glow voltage can also make a difference. Some plugs can take more than others, so you have to experiment. I have an Enya #3 in mine at the moment, and it takes 2.1 V for reliable ignition. The plug seems quite happy at that voltage.
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Bill Ludwig
Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

Great information, Phil - thanks! I'll give those suggestions a try in the morning and see what happens.

- Bill
03-01-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Jetkopter
Heliman
Location: Putnam Valley , New York

Hi Bill, I would have to agree that there is to much powermax on the first start attempt.Try not to fill your gas bottle to max capacity, watch the bubbles in the propane fill line, as soon as they start to slow down stop filling.If that does not help try reducing the gas by 10 percent by using your GSU . Bob Wilcox was away at Florida Jets so he may be a little slow to answer your e-mails.
Brg,
Don

Don DeSandre, JetCat rep
03-02-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Bill Ludwig
Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

Thanks, Don, the starting is getting better as I'm getting more used to it. I just got spoiled with the first defective ECU that kept the starter motor wound up until the Powermax lit.

- Bill
03-02-2003 Over year old.
 
 
edg
Senior Heliman
Location: San Francisco, CA

I don't know if this might have anything to do with it.

When I first got mine it was pretty sporadic starting up. Usually it would just seem to go thru trying to ignite the powermax cycle a few times and then shut down. I'd hear the starter motor spinning up, but no ignition.

Then, I just popped out the glow plug. Got an OS 8 plug. Pulled out the filament and replaced it. It's been starting fine ever since.

-edg-
03-03-2003 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Bill Ludwig
Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

edg,

The glow plug might be the problem. Right now, I'm having to run 80% pump on Powermax just to get it to start halfway reliably - sounds like most guys are running a lot less.

Thanks for the suggestion - I'll give it a try.

- Bill
03-03-2003 Over year old.
 
 
DavidR
Heliman
Location: Oxford, MS

I'm going to take a shot at your start problems..... I do not own a heli unit yet but I do have three other JetCat engines and I have a lot of time on them. What it sounds like is that your glow plug is not quite right. JetCat's ship with an OS A3 plug that is rather fragile. We have had very good sucess with the McCoy MC-9 plug. Usually when my engines start being diffuclt to start, or spool up and down a couple of times and take a while to light It can be fixed easily by changing the plug. Also make sure that the element is pulled out of the plug (at least two coils) at 90 degrees to the plug and you will get more reliable starts. Also as someone else mentioned don't fill your start gas tank all the way up. I usually get 4-5 starts out of mine from an almost full condition.


David Reid
JetCat Rep
03-05-2003 Over year old.
 
 
Bill Ludwig
Veteran
Location: Tucson, AZ

Thanks for the info, David. Bob Wilcox is sending me the McCoy plug, so we'll see shortly if that's the problem. He's also sending a grounding wire to make sure we're getting a good ground.

I've tried all the starting gas 'tricks' - more gas, less gas, don't top off the tank, etc. with no reliable difference.

I'll report back,

- Bill

AWESOME MACHINE!!!!
03-05-2003 Over year old.
 
 
1 page1535 viewsPOST REPLY
ZoomsHobbies . HeliHobby . Ron’s HeliProz South

.
.
Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > JetCopter starting problems...
  UPDATE SCREEN   PRINT TOPIC Advertisers 

Subscribe to This Topic

Sunday, September 7 - 10:14 am - Copyright © 2000 - 2008 runryder.com | email | link to rr | runryder needs cookie