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CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters . HeliProz

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Tweeking V-bar's "Feel"
 
 
smittylube
Heliman
Location: Mountain View CA

SO I have my V-bar in a 600 with rotortech 610's & now have a 1/2 dozen flights or so. I used D.J.'s setup to start with and 80% epa's in my radio.

I found it to be extremely responsive- more so the elevator as when doing tail down tic-toc's it tends to flop over. So I tamed the elevator a bit by reducing the epa.
Should I be adjusting this in the software & not the radio?

Also I find at times after some hard flying & stopping inverted or right side up level hover I get some cyclic occilations in the heli. Is there a gain adjustment to tame this?

Thanks, Steve
10-15-2007 03:59 PM
 
 
Heliplanet.de
Senior Heliman
Location: Aidlingen, near Stuttgart, Germany

OK, let me give you some hints:

- to have a well-working system don't reduce the travels at vstabi. If the heli might be to aggressive for you, use DR and EXPO at the tx.

- if you get oscillations on cyclic, reduce the proportional at the expert swash for aileron and elevator a few points.

Notice that Dannys setup might be a special setup for him and for perfect working you need all the same components, travels, adjustments as he uses.

Electric Scale - Vario & flybarless V-Bar - Mikado
10-15-2007 06:08 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ChrisT88
Veteran
Location: FL

Hi Steve,

Your issue is not the settings but the blade choice. The blades you chose are just too aggressive for flybarless use as they are extremely light and unstable.

It has been a question of what V blade weight Danny is using on his 600's but I do know the Logo 10/Logo 500 guys are running upwards of 125g 500mm blades. I think the RT 610's run 125-130g.

I think the real question now is, why in the world does Mikado not make this information more wide spread?
10-15-2007 08:37 PM
 
 
Heliplanet.de
Senior Heliman
Location: Aidlingen, near Stuttgart, Germany

Quote 
I think the real question now is, why in the world does Mikado not make this information more wide spread?

Just read this article at the VStabi WIKI FAQ:

http://vstabi.de/wiki/index.php?tit...ble_for_VStabi?

Electric Scale - Vario & flybarless V-Bar - Mikado
10-15-2007 08:46 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
smittylube
Heliman
Location: Mountain View CA

OK I would be pretty sure mine is not setup exactly like Danny's- so I will try to dial down the proportional a bit

I have gotten close to what I like as far as feel goes - and yes I believe my blades are very light 120 something range.

Thanks guys,
Steve
10-15-2007 10:07 PM
 
 
ChrisT88
Veteran
Location: FL

In the days before electronic stabilization heavier blades were often used to help restore some of the rotational mass lost when removing the flybar paddles. This helped the machine track and hover better. Even now with the advent of electronic stabilization you'll find some mechanical help goes a long way to further make electronically stabilized machines more like a mechanically stabilized machine while having numerous advantages like better autos, as Mikado has already found out.
10-16-2007 10:41 AM
 
 
smittylube
Heliman
Location: Mountain View CA

Ok - so I have it flying awesome- but I have a question about the tail- with the 611 I can dial in some delay for the stop to help the tail hold together- do we have an option like this in the vbar software?

Steve
10-19-2007 03:12 PM
 
 
ulrich
Heliman
Location: Hanau, Hessen - Deutschland

Hi Steve,

If i understand you right, you want to have a smoother stop right?

We have an Option called "Stick Acceleration Limiter" fo the Tail. It can be found in the Exp Rudder Panel (Upper right Bubble called "Lim" ) .

If you set if below 50 it starts to get in effect and slows the acceleration a bit (the less the value, the more effect). It does not limit the Rate, only the acceleration to reach the target rate. It is something like TCS and ABS in your car. So you get precise stops that do not overload the control loop and look much nicer.

All Options to set up the Tail are summarized here: http://vstabi.de/wiki/index.php?tit..._PID_controller
10-19-2007 04:10 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

As far as travel goes, reducing EPA in the transmitter only means the signal has fewer available frames. Keep the Tx EPA 70% or above. The cyclic signals will be interpreted as rate commands, just like a tail gyro. More signal means faster rotation, less signal means slower rotation. If you have to use very small signals to get the heli to feel right, then your servo arms are too long or the V-Stabi software is dialed up too much.

If your servo throws are going too far, using shorter servo horns can help to regain some lost resolution if you have travels dialed down to compensate. This would be the same idea as having a tail gyro with a long arm but travel dialed down too much. using the right length horn can help the system breathe since more available frames will allow for more precision.

..........
Dave
TT e620 SE and Mini Titan
10-19-2007 11:53 PM
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

To adjust throws without changing servo horn length, you can use the "cyclic gain" parameter in the Expert Swash menu. I've found that values over 150% will cause severe problems (such as large cyclic inputs result in the cyclic ring being disabled). Try to keep it around 100%, but using a little more or less can help tweak travel limits.

Uli,
Does anyone have a database of "ideal" blades for flybarless? It would be a GREAT idea to put on the Wiki since it's rather important.

..........
Dave
TT e620 SE and Mini Titan
10-19-2007 11:56 PM
 
 
Heliplanet.de
Senior Heliman
Location: Aidlingen, near Stuttgart, Germany

If you use the Cyclic gain parameter to adjust throws you will speed up the complete control circuit with values >100 or slow down with values <100.

This is a possible way, but not the best one. The best way is always changing the arm length.

In some helis with slow reactions at cyclic control (e.g. large scale helis with slow servos) you can speed up the control circuit and get more performance from VStabi by tuning it this way. Therefore you adjust all travels at 100%, change then cyclic gain to 120 and program 80% dual rate at yout tx for cyclic. The result ist 20% more throw at the control circuit output - faster reaction - and the same flight behaviour under stick control as before.

Electric Scale - Vario & flybarless V-Bar - Mikado
10-20-2007 12:16 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
smittylube
Heliman
Location: Mountain View CA

Ok thanks guys,
I think I am getting a much better understanding.

However I am a bit unclear on how you hook up to the computer & not eliminate your settings on your heli. I did have a hard time getting things to connect right away on my 2nd & 3rd attempts.& after some reading on another post I am apprehensive to start switching things & messing up what I have already.


Just to restate my tail question - in the 611 gyro it has an option of a delay to (as I understand it) start & a delay to stop the input or tail command. this option helps to not strip gears if say you do a full stick piro & then stop really fast or even then go full opposite stick. The delay is not enough for us to see or feel but sort of cushions the geartrain. I dont know if I even need to ask this question as I am not really hard on the tail but the settings I have really hold well right now.

Steve
10-22-2007 03:27 PM
 
 
smittylube
Heliman
Location: Mountain View CA

Ok I got it to hook right up this time no problem- I see 80 in the proportional setting- so this is basically 'gain' for the cyclic like we used to see in the gyros of old?
I did not change anything yet (I hope)

Steve
10-22-2007 03:39 PM
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

As far as "erasing settings" you need not worry. The settings are stored within the V-Stabi module, and the PC only reads them. Settings will not change unless you manually change them while its connected.

If you change settings when its disconnected, it won't take. You should click the "query" button to re-read the settings if the PC screen is still displaying a timeout or error. This will always show you what's in that specific bank (pending there is a good connection). Always wait a few seconds when switching banks or querying to make sure the PC has fully read every setting.


As for the tail, I'm not sure. There's no "micro delay" function that you can see for starting and stopping servo movement, but there are several parameters to play with in both the standard and expert screens. I haven't messed with the tail much besides travel, but IIRC the Integrator value will change stopping behavior. I've been using an S9254 without fail for over 100 flights. You can always turn the gain down a little if you're afraid of stripping gears.

..........
Dave
TT e620 SE and Mini Titan
10-22-2007 03:48 PM
 
 
smittylube
Heliman
Location: Mountain View CA

Alright I am getting more & more every time- so what I feel in mine is the elevator commands seem more aggressive than the aileron- & in expert mode I see paddle weight as 100 in both ele & ail- but paddle steering intensity is 50 for ail & 56 for elevator- so instead of lowering epa for ele maybe I should be lowering the intensity to make it more 'even' of a feel?

Also I lowered my proportional 2 or 3 points to see if this helps the hover occilations. I did find if I just dont hover long or give some sort of command these occilations dont show up.

Steve
10-22-2007 04:43 PM
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

That sounds correct. My proportional (on a Swift with 550mm blades) is about 20. Are your oscilaltions on aileron or elevator? If they are on elevator then you can search around the Vstabi.de forum for the "AOF" (Anti Oscillation Filter). It only affects the elevator axis, there is no AOF for aileron right now. I couldn't find it last time I searched, but MrMel may be able to help you out, I believe he's downloaded it. It allows for much lower Bell and much higer Proportional.

Proportional is the gyro controlling rotation by rate so it feels more direct and linear, similar to a constant-piro function of a good tail gyro. Bell is simply a direct "stick-to-swash mix". If you've increased Proportional, try reducing Bell. Too much of both could easily cause excessive sensitivity. Try reducing Bell a little bit, since this is a direct relationship from the stick to what goes into the blades. BTW, how much pitch are you getting for cyclic?

Paddle Steering Intensity from what I understand, is how much stick input goes into the "flybar" portion. The explanation I've read state: "Too high will cause the heli to keep rotating upon a stop" and "Too low will cause a strike back upon stop". Uli described this to me as "the amount of flybar deflection, higher values result in more flybar deflection". You can try experimenting nonetheless, to further understand how it affects flight.

On a side note,
"Hiller" is the amount of simulated flybar (gyro corrections) that goes into the blades. My Hiller was somehow WAY too high, causing violent oscillations. The gyro gain was still at 30 (should not be changed) but it was being mixed too much into the final blade output causing gross over-corrections. Hiller affects overall gyro inputs, Bell controls direct stick inputs. The gyro inputs can be adjusted to infinity, in come cases overriding the Bell (such as Proportional).

..........
Dave
TT e620 SE and Mini Titan
10-22-2007 06:02 PM
 
 
Heliplanet.de
Senior Heliman
Location: Aidlingen, near Stuttgart, Germany

Please post your Setup as an attachement.

If the RR Board doesn't support this, sign up to our VStabi support forum:

http://www.vstabi.de

Here you can ask us too and submit your steup as well.

Electric Scale - Vario & flybarless V-Bar - Mikado
10-22-2007 06:02 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
smittylube
Heliman
Location: Mountain View CA

So I would expect that the paddle steering would want to be the same value for both aileron & elevator.

The occilations seemed a slight bit better with the lower proportional. I think I will try to lower my paddle weight on elevator and some more proportional to see where it goes from there.

Oh- not sure how to post my settings- do you mean save as xml file & upload as an attachment?


thanks guys,
Steve
10-23-2007 03:46 PM
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

yes. You may have to manually add the ".xml" extension. The www.vstabi.de forum is mostly German, but its not hard to figure out. Use www.google.com and go to their language tools link. there you can enter a website address and it will translate to english automatically (as best it can).

..........
Dave
TT e620 SE and Mini Titan
10-23-2007 03:57 PM
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

Paddle steering may not need to be the same since the rotational inertia of aileron and elevator is different. The aileron axis has less inertia since everything is near the center of gravity, so nice firm stops are easy to accomplish. The elevator axis may wobble since it has more inertia. The heli frame is spread out lengthwise, so stopping it becomes a little more tricky. You may be able to get a nice firm stop, but if it wobbles then the parameters may need to change, or you should DL the AOF filter. You may need to try a higher value so it doesn't stop quite as hard.

..........
Dave
TT e620 SE and Mini Titan
10-23-2007 04:04 PM
 
 
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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Tweeking V-bar's "Feel"
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