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GrandRC . CanoMod . Futaba-RC

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e-E-Flite Blade CP CX 400-3D > Brushless tail help???
 
 
h8gravity
Heliman
Location: Florence, Arizona - United States

Hello all, This is my firtst post so please cut me some slack. I have a bcpp and have tried just about every setup out there. Ive been running the Eflites recommended brushless setup with the GWS DD tail and 3020 push on prop with no problems so dedided to go seperates. Im now running the CC Phoenix 10 on main and CC thunderbird 9 on tail. Im using a fegaio tail motor. I also have the G90 gyro. I hooked every thing up last night and for the most part everything seemed to functioning fine but after my tail esc armed I have constant right rudder that I can barely tame with full left rudder control. I cant for the life of me figure out how to correct this issue. Any thoughts and tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
10-08-2007 02:47 AM
 
 
tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

Make sure you are arming the tail ESC (at battery power up) with full left throttle.

What radio are you using?
10-08-2007 03:26 AM
 
 
h8gravity
Heliman
Location: Florence, Arizona - United States

Brushless tail help???

Thaks for the response. Im using a dx7. Ive read many of the setups on the threads here regarding this mod including yours. Ive set mix 2 with 100% and 100% offset and that gets the tail to arm in Throttle hold while I power everthing up. I hear the main esc arm then I see the G90 arm and then I hear the tail esc arm and then all of sudden the motor starts spinning violently. I tried adjusting gains on the gyro as well as rudder trims and nothing seems to work. Rudder commands function properly but I have to hold left just to get the motor to slow or stop at all.
10-08-2007 03:37 AM
 
 
tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

Your offset has to be -100 (minus 100) - double check that and post back...
10-08-2007 03:49 AM
 
 
h8gravity
Heliman
Location: Florence, Arizona - United States

Are you saying that the 100% has to be negative in both directions? Could you please give me an example of your mix menu? Thanks
10-08-2007 10:14 PM
 
 
irush
Senior Heliman
Location: Greensboro, NC

h8gravity,
I am running a JR 6102 instead of a Dx7(cool TX buy the way), with the same brushless tail that you have. I fire everything up by turning on the TX and then plug in the heli battery. I hear the main then wait for G90 to give it's blue light. then I input full left rudder and the tail arms. The only way the tail motor shuts off at this point is with full left left rudder. If I let the rudder stick center the tail motor will run. For me this is normal. It would be just like centering the throttle. I have to add left rudder while the the main rotor is spooling up to keep the tail from moving while the heli is still sitting on the ground. Once I "gas" it and get the heli off the ground a couple of feet, I let the stick center and the gyro takes over and everything is fine. Of course, I could have this all wrong, but it was the only way I could figure it out. The gyro doesn't have much affect until the tail starts moving(which it doesn't on the ground) so you won't have gyro control until the main spools up and the heli starts to get light on the skids. Hope this helps

flying is simple, electronics is hard
10-09-2007 01:52 AM
 
 
h8gravity
Heliman
Location: Florence, Arizona - United States

irush, thanks for the feedback. I will give that a try but it seems like the whole purpose of spending the kind of money on a programable radio is to fix these kinds of problems. I get the impression that not everyone is having this issue and if they are its a problem that can be corrected with mixing and other programming. Until I figure this out I will do as you suggest and see if that works. Thanks
10-09-2007 04:54 AM
 
 
futuramille
Veteran
Location: SC USA

I too use a JR6102. I use a cc phoenix 10 for my tail and my tail stops at center stick. I don't have to hold full left to get it shut down. I don't have gobs of TX programming into the rudder either...about 26 left sub trim is all I have in it. I know you don't have the cc10 but I wanted you to know a solution exits. I've done it and helped others to setup the same with the same results.

GY240 => CC10 => feigao 12 X 30 running a 4530 GWS prop mounted using the prop addaptor. Others have gotten the same good result with the G90.

I plug in the battery, wait for the main esc (also cc10) to arm and then arm the tail esc with full left stick. I recenter the stick and the tail motor is still. the minute the nose moves left eg as soon as the heli gets light on the skids and moves, the tail comes to life.

Its all in the programming of the CC10 using the phoenix link. Stock programming on the cc10 produces the same results you are experiencing so some customization is needed. easy to do with the phoenix link.



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.....I need more batteries!!!
10-09-2007 04:33 PM
 
 
tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

On the DX7:
Code 

[PROG.MIX2] - allows tail to arm with RUDD D/R sw "on" (1)
RUDD-> RUDD
RATE: +100%
0%
SW:HOLD
OFFSET:-100

Note the rate is +100%, the offset is -100...

This requires that you have throttle hold programmed:
Code 

[THROTTLE HOLD]
HOLD POS. 0.0%
SW:RUDD D/R I put the RUDD D/R sw to "on" (1) when I plug in
the battery on the helicopter


Please post your results...

For the reference to my complete DX7 program, check out this link (1/2 way down the first page):
[http://runryder.com/helicopter/t376585p1/]
or from the link in My Gallery.
10-09-2007 07:04 PM
 
 
h8gravity
Heliman
Location: Florence, Arizona - United States

futuramille, Thanks for the post. I was thinking about going with another CC Phoenix 10 anayways. Sounds like it would be worth it. Could you possibly send the Customized settings for your Phoenix? Thanks
10-09-2007 07:06 PM
 
 
futuramille
Veteran
Location: SC USA

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...ht=Phoenix+Link
....about half way down the page is a post I did a while back with screan shots from phoenix link. Since then, I've played with between 15 & 20% emediate brake to also help slow the prop down when transitioning from nose right to nose left and also hold better at the top of hard punchouts etc...otherwise, this is the setup.

Feel free to ask questions if you need clearification



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.....I need more batteries!!!
10-09-2007 07:11 PM
 
 
tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

The performance of the tail will certainly improve by changing the CC Phoenix 10 ESC program - it will not fix the problem you are having with the initialization.

Please verify your offsets ==> or do what futuramille does: ie. eliminate all mixing (set [PROG.MIX2] to INH) and arm the ESC manually by holding left rudder (do not use Throttle Hold).

Please post your results.
10-09-2007 07:54 PM
 
 
futuramille
Veteran
Location: SC USA

Yup, no mixing allowed with a heading hold gyro and motorized tail. the gyro does everything as far as holding orientation. As for the programming, the fixed throttle setting is key...hold full left rudder to set the low end point and initialize the esc. When you release the rudder stick back to neutral, the motor stays quiet. Any signal from the RX is direction changes.



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.....I need more batteries!!!
10-09-2007 08:18 PM
 
 
futuramille
Veteran
Location: SC USA

here is a video of my initialization.

<throttle cut on to keep the main quiet until I'm ready>
Plug in
main esc initializes
hold left rudder to initialize tail esc
center rudder (a couple tests)
click off throttle cut
spin up to 40% thottle
go to idle up
lift to hover and fly.

http://www.cindy4citycouncil.com/im...2231_output.wmv


PS. in my case, throttle cut only effects the esc signal. It has no effect on the gyro/esc tail setup.



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.....I need more batteries!!!
10-09-2007 08:26 PM
 
 
h8gravity
Heliman
Location: Florence, Arizona - United States

futuramille, Very nice video it seems to be a very stable bird. It also is a very good example of how to arm everything. And as for Tutelar-rc,
thtat is exactly how my mix 2 is set up. The tail esc arms with throttle hold but with this mix do you still need to hold full left rudder during arming? Please let me know. Thanks
10-09-2007 11:12 PM
 
 
Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

The mix holds left rudder for you so you don't have to

Until now I thought +75% -125 was the best way to do it - But I got that one from someone else and it worked great so I didn't bother playing around with it - So I just tried the +100 -100 and it actually looks cleaner to me - There's always a new trick to learn around here

Thanks

 
10-10-2007 01:12 AM
 
 
tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

OK.

If the DX7 is setup properly, the startup process is:

1. Throttle down, Throttle Hold on (towards you)

2. Plug in battery & wait for both main and tail to initialize

3. Turn Throttle Hold off (away from you) and fly...


Note: With Throttle Hold on, the main and tail motors will not turn on - even if you accidentally hit your Throttle.
This is a great failsafe - you have to hit BOTH your Throttle AND Throttle Hold to have a problem...

To quickly stop BOTH your main and tail motors, just turn on Throttle Hold (towards you).

Like when you crash, or a crash is imminent...

Here is a video clip of the Throttle Hold function in action...

Spektrum DX7 & Blade CPx Throttle Hold Demo

10-10-2007 03:08 AM
 
 
tutelar-rc
Key Veteran
Location: Nobleton, Ontario - Canada

To better understand the Programmable Mix, and what it is doing...

The Programmable Mix has 4 separate sections:
1. define the Tx stick function that controls the Rx servo function
2. the actual mix between a stick channel and a servo (slave) channel
3. the SWitch used to turn ON and OFF the mix
4. the OFFSET redefines the Neutral position of the servo (slave) channel

The important parts to this mix are:
  1. the Rx servo function (RUDD)
  2. the SWitch used to turn ON and OFF the mix (HOLD)
  3. the OFFSET (-100 or -125) (-125 is actually the better program)


Looking at the program in detail:
Code 

RUDD -> RUDD

This means that the Tx Rudder input will control the Rx Rudder servo output. The key part to this is the output (2nd) part. This could be controlled by the THRO or any other function, since you will not actually fly your heli with Throttle Hold turned on...

Code 

RATE: +100% or +75%
0%

Because we are using the RUDD channel to control itself, you can only program one rate.
Note If you are using one channel to control another channel, you can program a different rate in each direction - ie. you can change the 0% value.
Code 

SW:HOLD

This specifies which switch is used to turn ON and OFF the mix. In our case, we use the Throttle HOLD switch, as a carry over from Nitro helis...
Note: you can see the status of the switch while you are programming - top right of DX7 display
Code 

OFFSET:-100 or -125

The offset, as noted by Micro Maniac, holds the left rudder for you ==> only while the SW:HOLD is ON.

Note: This will set the zero value of the tail ESC to whatever the combined mix and offset is when you power up the heli.
Code 

My program,
mix=100 & offset=-100, and the rudder stick at neutral (0),
the actual Rx servo output will be 0 x100% -100 = -100.
Micro-Maniacs,
mix=75&offset=-125, and the rudder stick at neutral (0),
the actual Rx servo output will be 0 x75% -125 = -125.


This will set your tail ESC at zero when your left stick is at either -100 or -125 of its travel ==> this is somewhat irrelevant, since your HH gyro is actually controlling the tail ESC in flight... it will only have a little effect on the responsiveness of the gyro.

The reason I like Micro-Maniacs offset better than mine, is that if you accidentally hit right rudder, the tail ESC will see:
Code 

My program,
mix=100 & offset=-100, rudder stick at 100,
ESC sees 100 x100% -100 = 0
- tail motor is now moving at 1/2 throttle.
Micro-Maniacs,
mix=75&offset=-125, rudder stick at 100,
ESC sees 100 x75% -125 = -50
- tail motor is now moving at 1/4 throttle.


Based on this explanation, there is a better program - I will test it and start a new topic...
10-10-2007 04:08 AM
 
 
Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Both versions give 100% left rudder output at neutral in throttle-hold - The only actual difference I found is the max amount of right rudder each allows while in throttle-hold (100/100 gives 100% and 75/125 gives like 90%) which doesn't matter any because there's no reason to be giving right rudder while in throttle hold since the purpose of the mix is to (basically) disable the tail motor (hold 100% left rudder)

Just looking at the channel output etc I think I like the +100/-100 best because it's just simpler a cleaner looking (+100%rate -100offset 100%left 100%right)

Sorry if I confused anyone by bringing up the +75%/-125 version

And way over the top details tutelar-rc - Sharing info is becoming an art form around here
 
10-10-2007 04:24 AM
 
 
futuramille
Veteran
Location: SC USA

...guys, with this mix setup, don't you have to hold left rudder to stop the tail motor even when the throttle is down? I understand you can swith to hold to stop both motors but...



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.....I need more batteries!!!
10-10-2007 05:00 AM
 
 
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e-E-Flite Blade CP CX 400-3D > Brushless tail help???
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