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Crashed? Discussion and Photos > CSM Carbsmart crashed my N9
 
 
Jon0
Heliman
Location: Norwich - UK

If you’re thinking of buying a CarbSmart when the production models come out, then I’d be careful.

I purchased a pre-production CarbSmart from RealRaptors and fitted it to my Synergy N9 a few weeks ago and the result was that as my heli spooled up for its trial CarbSmart flight there was a series of undemanded cyclic inputs and as a consequence the heli jumped up off the ground and applied full left roll. As you can imagine the damage was pretty severe, despite me hitting throttle hold just prior to impact.

What CSM didn’t allow for when designing the CarbSmart was that some guys out there (like me) are using the SGP Reactor along with the JR DS10 Receiver and as a consequence have the “Battery” port on their receiver free. When using these two products in conjunction with the CarbSmart it is essential that you don’t power your CarbSmart from the “Battery” port - otherwise your helicopter will crash. I have since found out that there are other Regulators being used by the masses that leave you with a free battery port on your receiver too.

When I called up Colin Mill at CSM, the day after the crash he admitted that the signal line on the Carbsmart could cause undemanded reactions from the servos if plugged into the “Battery” port and that they were unaware of the different regulators on the market such as the SGP reactor. During this phone I was offered two production CarbSmarts by way of apology, but this changed to an offer of ‘nothing whatsoever’ after a nights sleep and quite possibly consulting Wendy Mill.

It appears that if you help CSM out with some research and development and your machine crashes then you’re on your own. Although having said that, I am no hero test pilot. I purchased my two pre-production units from Real Raptors at full price along with another 60 odd people!

In case you are wondering - the Carbsmart instructions sheet just has a diagram saying that the Carbsmart needs ‘Power’. To me the definition of power was the Battery port.

I have since found out that a few of the CSM sponsored pilots had the same (but less severe) glitching problems after plugging into the ‘Battery’ port on their receiver but were lucky enough to get the ship back on the ground with no damage. Something that’s more telling still, is that there are some CSM sponsored pilots who have yet to fit all of their free CSM electronics. You can see why, if you have a diary full of competitions to attend and there’s a chance that fitting a new prototype gadget will crash your machine.

I’ll certainly be boycotting all CSM goods in the future on principle, along with all the friends at my club and local shop, despite being a good CSM customer and attending many of Colin‘s seminars held at the 3D Masters over the years.

I flew a sponsored friends (CSM) Flybarless heli the other week and feel sure that it will be the future, however I’ll be waiting for Curtis’ system!

Photo of my mixture control Installation on N9 (on RealRaptors site);
http://www.real-kbase.co.uk/csm_mixture.html


Published 'Post crash' warning to other CarbSmart users - no Matelle re-call though (remember only 60 sold!)

http://www.realraptors.co.uk/zen-ca...ews&news_id=133

Crash damage £300. Blades, Main shaft, Axle shaft, Flybar, Tail boom, Torque drive, Main gear, Boom supports, 3 servo gear sets, Custom painted Canopy, etc....

09-20-2007 10:49 AM
 
 
jb_turner
Key Veteran
Location: USA

I have learned long ago to keep RC Helis as simple as possible.

JB "Do a SEARCH" Turner
09-20-2007 08:03 PM
 
 
Jon0
Heliman
Location: Norwich - UK

It hate to admit it but, - when its not crashing your machine or creating glitching - the CarbSmart does make your engine run better.

Believe me that was a hard thing to admit given my experience of the unit, and CSM's (non existant) customer service.
09-20-2007 08:20 PM
 
 
bparro
Veteran
Location: indianapolis,in

the fromeco arizona regulator also leaves the battery port open.
09-21-2007 02:13 AM
 
 
Jon0
Heliman
Location: Norwich - UK

May be other's too.
09-21-2007 03:15 PM
 
 
Jon0
Heliman
Location: Norwich - UK

Anyone out there in the Legal profession? Am very keen to persue this further. Maybe you could PM me. Many thanks.
09-21-2007 10:17 PM
 
 
bigdad390
Veteran
Location: e. liverpool, ohio

I take it that you did not range check after making the change to the electronics?
09-22-2007 12:28 AM
 
 
Jon0
Heliman
Location: Norwich - UK

Yep. Sure did. It range checked fine! I do a range check every time I fly never mind just after a configuration change.

A CSM sponsored pilot I knew flew it for a few flights with the odd brief but eratic glitch during flight. With my electronics the uncommanded cyclic glitches were more severe.
09-22-2007 05:36 PM
 
 
z11355
rrMaster
Location: 10000 is enough time wasted.

this whole thing sounds weird.

if you purchased the item from a vendor (not CSM), doesn't that imply
it's 'production', not pre-production?

Did some sort of contract or agreement exist that indicated that you
knew or accepted taht it was pre-production and spelling out
the responsibilities of each party to the contract?

if you knew it was pre-production, wouldn't you somehow expect things to be less than perfect or ready and would you be prepared for it in
some form?


You imply that Colin was fine w/ some reimbursement but that after an
alleged conversation w/ Wendy, that changed.

And now you want to pursue legal action? Right. The lawyer will
laugh at you.

Good luck.
09-22-2007 06:01 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rookie5
Veteran
Location: Harlow, Essex - United Kingdom

ouch sorry for your loss buddy ! i hope you get things sorted out.
and to think i was thinking about getting one for my 600 i doubt it now
09-23-2007 12:19 AM
 
 
Jon0
Heliman
Location: Norwich - UK

[quote]Did some sort of contract or agreement exist that indicated that you
knew or accepted taht it was pre-production and spelling out
the responsibilities of each party to the contract?

It does sound strange, but obviously pre-production models were sent out to sponsored pilots to test. CSM didn't quite get there production models ready in time for the 3D Masters, but did have 30 for sale there through 'Real Raptors'. They then made a further 30 off units. The prodution ones were then meant to follow shortly after. As far as I'm aware, they are not out yet ,possibly they were in need of some alterations? No - in effect they were sold through a vendor to the public - so I'd say they were "Production".

Rookie 5; Thanks for the kind wishes.
09-25-2007 07:12 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Isn't the simple fix to this to insure the signal line is not connected to the receiver? The battery port obviously provides no information useful to the CarbSmart, so why even connect it?

The signal line on the battery port of JR receivers is the DSC input. One shouldn't mess with that connection.

John,
If everyone took legal action against RC companies when something doesn't work out, there would be no RC companies left. Think about it. This isn't exactly a mega market with untold sales and money to be made.

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
09-25-2007 08:23 PM
 
 
bob00
Veteran
Location: Toronto, ON

Quote 
Isn't the simple fix to this to insure the signal line is not connected to the receiver? The battery port obviously provides no information useful to the CarbSmart, so why even connect it?

JKos, I was thinking the same thing - if all that's needed is power then it would be a good idea to remove the signal line from the lead going to the mixture unit. Many of todays rx's reserve the use of the signal line at the battery port for all sorts of special functions - would rather *not* have anything connected here.


Jon0, what happened in your case was unfortunate but if it was understood that the unit in question was a prototype (however it was obtained) then one needs to realize that there is a certain element of risk involved with using such item as you are now a part of the test process.

Over the years our group (teambob00) has opted to try countless first-run/prototype/untested devices - some were highly successful others resulted in the complete destruction of the model in flight. This is the unwritten price of progress and is part of what makes this a hobby.

Hope you get it back together soon.
- Rob
Team FlightPower, Team Avant, TeamBob00
09-25-2007 09:38 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Jon0
Heliman
Location: Norwich - UK

Yep. See what you're both saying about the legal side of things - am still cross that the company in question learned from my experience and didn't offer anything in return. Even a proper apology. If I were sponsored and getting the gear for free then I'd have taken a different view. Will keep practicing.

I'm just glad it didn't kill anyone.

Removing the Signal line is the fix! I promptly removed mine. I gather that the mainstream batch of units will be without signal line too.
09-25-2007 09:57 PM
 
 
Mark C
Key Veteran
Location: Houston, TX - USA

Jon0,

I would say that I TOTALLY feel your pain and hope a speedy recovery for your N9. Honestly I do.

I will tell you that I have been in your EXACT position. I received a prototype part from a manufacturer/distributor (that will remain nameless as I promised him) to field test. I knew the risks and agreed to try to fly it to pieces to help him test it. I totally succeeded. That is right, I managed to fly it apart.

The bottom line is I knew the risks. I refrained from putting it on one of my flagship birds and put it on one of my "disposable" beater-birds that I flew every day. I managed to blow it apart in mid-air after 6 months.

I knew the risks, I took the proper precautions, I did the testing and reported the results to him afterwards. That is the name of the game. It makes the future product better for me and everyone else.

On even another note I will tell you that "my N9 crashed my N9". I was early in line for the first run of N9 kits. Missing threads in the TT couplers, slipping main shaft collars and ejecting tail rotor grips all blew out crown gears and sent my N9 to the ground several times for a rebuild. Sometimes I could save it, sometimes I couldn't.

I will say that unlike you I did receive help from both vendors for my situations. Todd Bennett stepped up and got me back in the air at least twice on the N9. The other vendor offered up the new version of the parts and then some. So at the least, Colin should indeed step up here if this "Battery Port" connection turns out to be an issue and he didn't warn you beforehand.

As for legal recourse, I doubt that you will find any. And to be honest, Colin Mills wants to sell a good successful product I have no doubt. There is no business model that will support a device that has known issues in this market.

I have never met Colin and don't know him except from his postings. But even from that little contact I would say that he is someone who wants to see everyone succeed in this hobby.

I hate to say it but from my short 4.5 years of experience in RC Helis, it seems that "early adopters" of anything new in this hobby seem to be somewhat at risk. The history list is pretty long from receivers that glitch to gyros that go hard over to regulators that fail. It doesn't seem to slow anyone down. I was drooling over CY's Vibe50 all weekend at the last funfly and will probably end up early in line for another round of either bliss or heartbreak when it's released.

Your best course is to maintain contact with Colin and work this through. Keep in touch with him and see where it goes.

Best of luck on a speedy recovery!

Mark C.
09-25-2007 10:55 PM
 
 
Jon0
Heliman
Location: Norwich - UK

Thanks Mark.
09-26-2007 01:19 PM
 
 
"Cam"
Veteran
Location: Japan

Sorry about the crash.

It's probably best to think that we're all in the testing of new heli products and if you want the latest gizmo now, just be very cautious.

DSX9
TRex 600, 500, 450
Hurricane 550
Yak 180, 40% Extra - 15S
Custom eRaptor 700
10-12-2007 12:25 PM
 
 
tmaxx26power
Senior Heliman
Location: South Dakota

I would be upset I was offered two production carbsmarts for compensation then they turn and revoke that offerthe very next morning. Consistency is key to Great Customer Srvice!
10-12-2007 09:03 PM
 
 
Jarold C
Senior Heliman
Location: Somewhere near Pittsburgh, PA

Sorry, I too long ago gave up on CSM. You get what you pay for.

Don't bother flaming.. if you like their products, more power to you...besides my asbestos underwear is on!!

Guess what? I just saved a ton of money on my Auto(rotation) insurance!
10-19-2007 01:42 AM
 
 
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