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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Justin Chi loses control at NEAT fair and heli goes into crowd..

CJames
Key Veteran
Location: Back in KC

Quote
Seems to me that most failures happen on Align heli's

There are more align helis flying than any other brand right now, they are the flavor of the month, so oviously when there are accidents, they are bound to be at least some of the helis involved.

Nether of the injury accidents at Ircha was an align.
Type of manufacture has nothing to do with it, the machines are quality built,
BUT,
pilot skill {or lack of}, mechanical upkeep, radio interferance, and spectators just way too dang close,

These are the things that need to be addressed.

Anyone want a pet rabbit?.............I found him on the road dead and I'm tired of hugging him

09-17-2007 03:35 PM

whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

I know I will be flamed, but I don't really care what anyone else thinks.

I have no issue with a 5 yr old flying. His flying skills are probably way better than my own, but as a father, there is no way in HELL I would be putting my kid on the flight line at big events such as this one, or Ircha, or any of the other big ones. I've just seen too many bad things happen over the years.

I think this goes well beyond someone simply enjoying the hobby with their son. It is one thing to enjoy the hobby and fly together, but I think this plays to something other than that, and I'm not even going to get into that part of it.

I hope everyone involved recovers soon.

Mike

09-17-2007 03:40 PM

bald eagle
Veteran
Location: detroit michigan

what a STUPID comment about aligh helis that guy is a putz

jeff

09-17-2007 03:46 PM

Carey
Senior Heliman
Location: Allentown, NJ U.S.

If I had a 5 year old...

If I had a 5yr old R/C Pilot'ing a truck, much less a heli/plane there would be a buddy box on at all times for sure. This stance does not suggest that a buddy cable would have had any impact on the incident in question.

I am a fan of Justin, for what it's worth. Don't think I am hatin on the little fella.

You cannot get around this one simple fact though:

Best case scenario, he has the mind of a 5 year old.

Reading and comprehension? 8th Grade? I believe it.
Flying an R/C Heli? Adult/Pro level? I believe it.

Total 'mental package of a Cognizant Adult'? I call, all in.

I am not saying this happened from age, mech failure, EMP pulse, Voodoo, Scientologists...I am just saying... a 5 year old mind does not view the world around him the same way a cognizant adult, nor even a 14 year old adolescent does.

I am not trying to armchair quarterback anything, but I would sure as heck get a buddy cable for liability reasons. We already know he can fly better than his dad, so there will be no accusations of Puppeteering.

If/When there is a next time, you will have an adult directly connected (no pun) to the situation, for Liability, Accountability, and Responsibility. That way Justin isn't exposed as the sole person at the switch(damn them puns), because once again, he's 5 years old correct?

Saying this because I want to see Justin become... Justin Woods! Well you know what I mean.

09-17-2007 04:04 PM

AndyH
Key Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA

Quote
5 year old mind does not view the world around him the same way a cognizant adult,

I agree 1000% and have already stated this on this forum. I believe I even said, "I hope nothing ever happens.." I hate it when I'm right.

This is dangerous and irresponsible of the parent. Period. Another thing I don't understand is why so few people see the problem in this. What in the hell happened to common sense?? How do you even begin to let a 5 year fly a 90 without even the little bit of protection that a buddy box could afford?

I hope the person who was hit recovers well and isn't scarred too bad.

And I hope this serves as a reality check for people!

This hobby is like Kryptonite to chicks!

09-17-2007 04:10 PM

whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

I am a great fan of the little guys flying. I think he is a true wonder.

At the same time, I am no fan of his father at all. I think the situations he puts his son in are flat out dangerous, and he should damn well know better. I'm talking dangerous to the kid himself, and not so much to others around him.

Mike

09-17-2007 04:21 PM

Rotorwacker
Heliman
Location: Nederland TX, USA

I believe that the father is liable buddy-box or not! Since Justin is a minor, parents bear the responsibility, at least we were when my kids got in trouble.
I do support his flying, and hope that he does not burn out too early. Just wait until he discovers girls!

I Love RC Helis,and have the Receipts to prove it

09-17-2007 06:23 PM

ChrisW
Senior Heliman
Location: Carlsbad, CA

Scream buddy-box all you want....

...but it would not have made any difference if the crash is due to a mechanical failure. I have seen a post stating they believe it was a failed head link that caused the loss of control...

Even if it was a result of pilot error, I doubt anyone would be quick enough to have avoided the accident...If you've ever tried to buddy-box a heli, you know there's very little time if any to respond if the heli is below a certain altitude.

In my opinion, I think the show organizers should carry as much or more responsibility for the accident as the pilot...They set-up the flight-line, they determine the location and proximity of the spectators...It may be time for the demo pilots (of any age)to refuse to fly if the venue is not adequately safe.

my 0.02...
ChrisW

09-17-2007 06:50 PM

Havoc
Key Veteran
Location: Ky.

Quote
If you've ever tried to buddy-box a heli, you know there's very little time if any to respond if the heli is below a certain altitude.

You are supposed to respond before it gets to that point.

Quote
It may be time for the demo pilots (of any age)to refuse to fly if the venue is not adequately safe.

That is already the pilot's responsibility.

09-17-2007 06:55 PM

colsy
Elite Veteran
Location: Cambridge, UK

Quote
Just wait until he discovers girls!

Yes that would ruin some great potential.

We all know that kind of thing happens so 'bloody' quick, it makes little odds. But someone on a buddy would 'maybe' take some criticism away. "maybe"..

Let's hope that it doesn't discourage 'dads' efforts to support his boy.

Flight-line safety is never good enough, ..

And in my opinion, anyone sat in a 'chair' needs to be watching a display 100%, and be ready to move 'quick'..

Shame it's happened to 'Justin' really..

Col.

Only Quote From Experience.

09-17-2007 06:55 PM

HOMEPAGE

LouInSD
Veteran
Location: San Diego CA USA

As others have already said, it could have happened to any one of us, no matter what age...

We have had the same exact thing happen at local events here. Brovic lost control of his heli this weekend at the Border funfly and people were running scared. Luckily nobody got hurt but it could have been worse.

This is not the first time a 50 or 90 size bird has gone into the spectator area at one of these events.

The kid has proven himself to be a very good pilot but these things happen even to the best of pilots. We ALL know that.

I wouldnt be surprised if it was a Spektrum problem. I've been hearing too many bad things lately.

I had a link come loose last weekend while flying at about 30 feet up, it took a fraction of a second for the thing to hit the ground. I was able to hit throttle hold but it didnt do much good, the thing already had a lot of downward speed going.

It will be interesting to see how the AMA responds. I would rather see a huge net put up (kind of like at driving ranges) than to see the heli pilots pushed to 100 yards away where you can't even see them anymore.

That way if a heli began flying into the spectator area, the net would at least stop the blades from spinning, and hopefully slow the thing down if not stop it altogether...

09-17-2007 06:58 PM

Carey
Senior Heliman
Location: Allentown, NJ U.S.

Well just yesterday...

I was buddy'ing for a friend on a 600e. He crossed over the center of the airfield (our 3d boundary) slightly out of control, something he could have flown out of, and I took over that split second regardless, reset him at 50 feet upright, and apologized.

We buddy up on 450 and 50 size helis, for what it's worth. Yes it's a twitch game, just like any other first person shooter. Hell just flying much less saving a 450 is a twitch game.

I am not 'screaming' buddy box, nor suggesting that it would have corrected this situation, as I covered in my OP.

I am certainly suggesting that a 5 year old mind should not be the only one at the reigns though, to be perfectly explicit. Seems like common sense to me.

Logically I can build a case as to why Justin should NOT need a backup, but critical thinking will usually piss all over my 'great logical conclusion'.

Jumping off a cliff to cure a headache makes logical sense. Critical thinking keeps me alive, instead headed to the store for some pills.

09-17-2007 07:13 PM

bsoder
Heliman
Location: Mesa, AZ

Quote
I am certainly suggesting that a 5 year old mind should not be the only one at the reigns though, to be perfectly explicit. Seems like common sense to me.

This is pretty much the point I'm coming to as well. I have a son who just turned five. While not a heli prodigy

he's a sharp little kid whose skills sometimes outpace his ability to make judgment calls.

Just because a 5-year-old is capable of doing flips, rolls, and all the other neat maneuvers that make a skilled pilot so much fun to watch, doesn't mean he necessarily has the ability to know when it's safe to do those things and when it's not.

That said, it sounds like it probably wouldn't have mattered too much who was at the controls - a mechanical failure has nothing to do with good judgement.

09-17-2007 07:26 PM

willie evans
Veteran
Location: Alberta, Canada

red_Z06

Quote
He then proceeded to takeoff and started back on his manuevers. It was rainbowish maneuver but instead of going from left to right in front of him, it was arcing toward him high above and went over our heads and crashed 5feet past the crowd control net.

Can't be a mechanical failure a experienced pilot would have put it in as fast as he could on take off as to save everyone else, at least put on throttle hold.
Either way tragic.
If it was me, I would quite flying Helicopters especially if front of anyone from then on.. my fault or mechanical failure fault.

Not sure if Justin understands or comprehends what happened but I hope he can adjust to keep a healthy child hood

09-17-2007 07:57 PM

scrape
Heliman
Location: Dayton. OH USA

I would rather see a huge net put up (kind of like at driving ranges) than to see the heli pilots pushed to 100 yards away where you can't even see them anymore.

I agree with LoulnSD.

09-17-2007 07:58 PM

Nathan
Senior Heliman
Location: Elkhart, Indiana

Once we become uninsurable that will be the end of it. Flying to close to others is the responsibility of the pilot (Dad in this case) and the CD. Here come the rules we will not like.

Nathan

09-17-2007 08:10 PM

aceisback
Senior Heliman
Location: Terre Haute, IN

After reading the 2 threads regarding this incident, it appears that the only way to prevent this from happening again is:

1. Ban anyone under the age of 90 from flying helis.

2. Never allow a heli to fly at ANY field where there are airplanes.

3. Don't teach your kids to fly helis and NEVER take your kid to a heli event to be used as a freak show.

4. Buddy boxes are required for all heli pilots.

5. All heli pilots must demonstrate that they can recover from any and all situation where the heli gets out of control.

6. Never try and "FORCE" a child to fly Helis.

Where is the reality here ? How old were many of the so-called professional pilots when they started out flying RC ?

Really, these posts are getting quite humorous IMO...

09-17-2007 08:16 PM

HOMEPAGE

dialarotor
Veteran
Location: Traverse City, Michigan

Look at the RR videos of the 2005 3DM. It is time for catch nets, especially at the central flight stations at IRCHA. Doesn't have to be expensive, erect light weight nets on cane poles or conduit sections. It will also keep the crowds back behind a fixed point, as this is a fictious line at IRCHA that gets fuzzier by the hour, flight and day. Sections of nets with 2 meter breaks to pass through at the demo stations seems like cheap insurance.

Go to MEMPHIS NET & TWINE CO. They have sport nets and fishing nets.
The fishing style monofilament is the cheapest lightest and is available in many mesh and depth ranges, check the lengths in the adds. Cheap clear or light purple tint, and just enough to catch a helicopter on it's way into the crowd. It will be a mess, but way cheaper than EMS and ER bills.

http://www.memphisnet.net/product/96/netting_mono_10

Carbon fiber paint stick maker

09-17-2007 08:22 PM

HOMEPAGE

willie evans
Veteran
Location: Alberta, Canada

a3dpilotusa
Posted a good point when a sponsored pilot causes a accident who is really going to cough up expenses incurred?

Quote

My Posts This Topic The question on whether a 5 year old should be doing demo's or flying without a buddy box around a group of people is probably is going to be pretty polarizing.

One aspect of this that could be very bad for Justin, his dad, and the hobby is that he is a "sponsored" pilot doing "a demo" or practice for such demo. AMA insurance does not cover pilots past hobby status. They are receiving product, travel, and or compensation to do this flying which makes them semi- or straight professional in all legal terms.

If this poor guy who was hit decides to sue them, the event, and the event organizers personally I think the legal system would be very hard on them. Heck maybe they will bypass the little fish and go after the sponsor of his equipment. The cost in $ that could be awarded due to this type of injury and negligence could be very high.

Those of you involved in this type of demo flying I would assume have good insurance. If not then they are playing with fire.

2.4ghz is great, but they just eliminated the "lockout" defence. If they claim "mechanical" then they can argue who did the maintenance and the building of the machine.

I can see it now. So how many times had this pilot crashed in the last year? Who was the safety pilot for a 5 year old? How many mechanical crashes have you had in the last year? Who is the mechanic? Does the pilot pre-flight the machine? Do you know these machines can be dangerous?

From a liability standpoint, this should have lawyers drooling....

09-17-2007 08:33 PM

Havoc
Key Veteran
Location: Ky.

Aceisback, but if a discussion on one-way bearings can start controversy then it's a safe bet this topic would. What I tell people when they ask what age to start their kid in the hobby I ask what age they would take them to the shooting range. But around here that age is about 3.

09-17-2007 08:39 PM

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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Justin Chi loses control at NEAT fair and heli goes into crowd..

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