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e-Electric Conversions > Shuttle on 5s
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

I know alot of people have converted their shuttles to 6s or even 8s e-power

I have an old z-ts which I am not using and recently purcased a motor mount for it which I am still waiting on from HHI.

I currently use 10s in my Joker2 so have a number of 5s 5000mAh packs which I use in series. I would hope to use these packs individually in the shuttle also and wondered would I have temp and power issues on 5s.

I think I would need a motor with a KV of 1000 to acheive a headspeed of about 1700 rpm. I just want it for general flying no real 3d. The Heli is not stock with alot of quickuk parts so it may be a bit on the heavy side!

Also wondered if the mount is compatable with the Kontronik motors?

Anyone got any opinions please?

Regards

Fergus
08-29-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Chris Paul
Heliman
Location: Coopersburg, PA

ORDER RECEIVED TODAY

WILL SHIP TODAY BY POSTAL SERVICE. dELIVERY AT LEAST 5 WORKING DAYS
08-29-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Thanks for the update. Just re-read my post which was probably badly worded I didn't mean to imply slow service on your part.
I had only placed the order for the motor mount.

what I had intended to convey was that I do not yet have the mount and so was wondering if Kontronik motors are compatable.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Origional queries still stand guys so if anyone can help?

Regards

Fergus
08-29-2007 Over year old.
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Ok I got some time to do the maths on this so if anyone has any input please let me know.

5s battery = 18.5volts

Taking 130 watts per pound for power requirement (max)

7 pound shuttle

910/18.5= 49 amps max current!!

5000mAh battery rated for 20c continuous and allowing 95 watts for average power = 36amps average

Flight times for 5000mAh pack:

(5/36)*60 *.8= 6 minutes 30 seconds (applying 80% rule for lipos)

Are the numbers reasonable?

Fergus
08-29-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Shadowfox
Senior Heliman
Location: ABQ,NM

yes Id say putzing around a shuttle on 5s1p lipo would give ya relaxing flight maybe even a lil sizzle in there also...

My 10s1p A123 shuttle comes in at 7.5 RTF.

Z30A-800
PHX 45HV ESC
QWW tail rotor upgrade/battery tray CNC

I just hacked my Astro 109 to charge these A123s as before I was charging it as a 4s2p ((2) 5s1p paralleled) lipo just to be safe. I was getting about 4-5 min on 10s1p hovering setup flights.
08-29-2007 Over year old.
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

The amp draw seems like it will be a bit high for my liking though. How do people think I will be fixed with temps? I want to avoid going 6s as I have the 5s packs already and am too broke to purchase diffent packs at the moment

I was considering motor options and don't know if I should go for 900KV or 1000KV. With a headspeed of 1600rpm the gear ratio would give me a motor speed of 15400 that would suggest a motor KV of 900. How accurate are these things on paper as I am really not allowing for efficency deviations here. I am worried that if I go with 1000kv to be safe and have to dial it down too much then I will move out of the motors comfort zone and have an even larger amp draw and more heat!! whereas if 900 is too low then I just blew my money. Given the fixed gear ratio I really need to be sure before I purchase the motor and ESC.

Thanks

Fergus
08-29-2007 Over year old.
 
 
P901
Heliman
Location: Southwick,MA

Good evening Fergus,

I`ve just completed a Hirobo Schweizer conversion with MRB III 3 blade head, runs about 3,500g with skid gear, 3,800g with scale floats. Can get it down to 3,350g with the skid gear and lightweight canopy instead of the heavier fiberglas canopy.
I think if you do a search for posts by P901 it should pop up.
Some numbers, running MS Composit 515mmCF headspeed was 1,650 by Skytach Optical, had the AF Whattmeter on board and I could read approximately 19amps at liftoff into IGE hover.
The hover was a bit touchy with this headspeed, (also 16mm of cyclic throw at the servos).
Reduced the headspeed to 1,400rpm same blades, (Rotortech 515mmCF run about 50 rpm faster, slightly less chord) and the ammeter gave 21amps at liftoff into hover with this headspeed and MS blades.
I am a beginner so I spend my time in and out of ground effect hover but I`m getting 10 minutes flight time with Flightpower 3700mah 5S
Schulze 35.22k control, Medusa 36mm 810Kv with heatsink,
9.625:1 main gearing.
More detail and photos on the conversion post.
Plenty of cyclic authority and with another click of throttle the machine climbs right away.
I`m fortunate to have five battery packs and four chargers so I fly the battery packs in rotation continuously and the motor gets very warm but never burning hot. This being in hover without the benefit of translation into forward flight.
Hope this helps P901
andrew

andrew
08-30-2007 Over year old.
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Thanks Andrew,

Correct me if i'm wrong but looking at your numbers you are consuming about 400watts in the hover (allowing for a near fully charged pack.

At a weight around 7.5 Ibs thats about 60 watts per Ib or less. At that rate either your three blade head is alot more efficient or my figure of 95 watts/Ib average is far too high.

I arrived at the 95 figure from looking at others experiences.

Am I being over cautious with this figure.

Regards

Fergus
08-30-2007 Over year old.
 
 
P901
Heliman
Location: Southwick,MA

Good morning Fergus !

Now that you mention it, I did some math in the beginning
when I was laying out the modifications for the conversion of this
heli and I was working around the 100w figure. Possibly the efficiency may come from the thin section CF blades and the fact that I opted to use 515mm instead of the 550mm. Of course the compromise being the loss of stability due to the inertia of the longer blade but also the reduction by the square root of the leverage/drag to drive the tips at that radius, seems to have worked.
Since the net lift must overcome the total weight of the machine the lift/drag must balance to have liftoff occur. That fact being equal I reasoned that the slightly shorter blades would cause a bit less of a mechanical load.

Since I am a beginner and this is my first machine my research was brought into focus along the performance numbers of similar setups and more specifically the Logo 10 through 16 models which gave me a practical range of weight and power consumption figures.

Haven`t gone back over my numbers once I got the machine in the air, (probably the initial newbie surprise that it works ! )
The machine was first setup with the standard Hirobo 2 blade head with the flybar,515mmn CF, AXI 2826 with Jeti 70, flew nicely. I overloaded the AXI motor/ESC when I went to the 3 blade head and semi-symmetrical factory stock wood blades although I think this might have been to my not having the throttle/pitch numbers where they should have been.
(Also at this point I was not in possesion of a wattmeter or tachometer, the loss of the AXI motor/ESC is what drove that purchase although I know from the factory numbers that the AXI 2826 was slightly undersized)
I think your 95w number sounds reasonable since the machine was initially designed to work around the 100w number.
Going by memory I think I have the DX6 three point setup on something of this order, throttle, 10-40-80 and the pitch 10-35-50, strange numbers I know but they work for a beginner. I spool up with 3.5 degrees at the lower throttle setting, (keeps me from dropping the machine from the sky when I get nervous and cut the throttle, getting better at that though...) and from the relative stick position it appears that intial lift off occurs at ~ 7.5 to 8 degrees of pitch which confirms the factory number in the manual.
Hope this helps, andrew

andrew
08-31-2007 01:55 PM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Thanks again for your feedback Andrew. Without finding any posts specific to a 5s setup with the standard head I have decided to trust the maths and have purchased the ESC and Motor!

I decided on the Kontronik Tango 45-9 and the Jazz 80-6-18 ESC. The motor has a Kv rating of 920 which when applied to the fixed gear ratio of 9.625 and the 5s 18.5 lipo battery leaves a headspeed of 1768 rpm.

Given 200RPM in headroom for the governor and a little for efficiency I hope that will leave me at around the 1550 rpm mark (fingers crossed)

The ESC might be overkill but I know it has a fantastic switching BEC which should banish any glitching and with its 80 amp rating should keep things nice and cool.

I will update this post when the parts are in.

Anyone with views on this setup please chime in.

Thanks again Andrew. You say you are only learning - in that case I suspect you have some experience with full size given your knowledge of rotor dynamics

Regards

Fergus
08-31-2007 05:53 PM
 
 
P901
Heliman
Location: Southwick,MA

Good morning Fergus,

I think the Tango motor you have selected will do quite well, if I recall the numbers were very similar to the Medusa motor I chose for this project. The only reason I went with the Medusa motor is that I live very close to the factory, (about an hour away), and I figured the shipping would be quick since I was rather disappointed with myself when I burned up the AXI motor and wanted to get back into the air quickly.
I have seen a fellow named BellBloke on this site that converted a Hirobo Lama (3blade head) to electric and his approach was to parallel the batteries in outboard scale panniers, the batteries being covered with scale tarpaulins, very nice job. His project came out around 5-6? Kilos and my approach was to go lighter rather than heavier so my endevour was to "build in lightness" as they say which would then give me room for expansion if I chose to go heavier with more battery capacity. Since this was a "niche design" project with adherence to some tight numbers, weight/performance etc. it was a bit of a search to find just the right motor. The Medusa 36mm 810kv is very similar to the Tango 45 series, 08-09-10 so I know you will have good success with your project.
This is my first helicopter but to reply to your query, my experience comes from a book, "Rotary Wing Aerodynamics" by authors Stepniewski and Keys. More math than text but much information if one is willing to get ones head around the formulae. Rather like reading the Greek alphabet !
Please do post photos and performance numbers when you get up and running. One of the things I find is that there seems to be little information on unique designs or modifications. Understandable since it is probably more fun to the majority of people to buy an pre-engineered kit and get into the air. Being a curious sort on my end I like to mix things up a bit and see what happens.
Best of luck, andrew

andrew
09-01-2007 02:39 PM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

I have started the convesion and have uploaded a number of pics to my gallery if anyone wishes to view them

Regards

Fergus
10-24-2007 08:23 PM
 
 
csc
Senior Heliman
Location: Nampa, ID

Looks great! Keep us posted.

______________________
Shuttle RG
Shuttle RG/M
eShuttle
10-24-2007 08:33 PM
 
 
P901
Heliman
Location: Southwick,MA

Looks like it is coming along nicely !

I`m not too familiar with that type of cell.
What is the voltage per cell and what will be the total
voltage of your pack available to the ESC?

Thanks, P901

andrew
10-25-2007 01:52 AM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Hi Andrew

The shuttle will be on 5s lipo (Flightpower Evo 20 5000mAh)

The other cells in my gallery are A123 cells for my Joker2. The pack is the equivalent of 10s lipo.

More pics soon

Regards

Fergus
10-25-2007 06:22 AM
 
 
P901
Heliman
Location: Southwick,MA

Good afternoon Fergus,

Sounds like some serious power there !
Keep the photos coming, very interested in the numbers once things
are up and running, AUW, volts/amps, flight times, etc.

P901

andrew
10-25-2007 05:45 PM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Completed two test flights. All looks good so far. Results:

480 watts in the hover at 7.5Ibs equals 64 watts per pound (I had expected 90 or more!). Andrew this is very similar to your power requirements with the three blade head.
950 watts on full pitch (10degrees) climbout at 7.5Ibs equals 126 watts per pound.

450mAh per minute so at 80% rule equals 7.5 to 8 minute flight time. I am estimating about 25amps or so in the hover.

Temperature:

Motor 21degC
ESC 19degC
Batteries 27degC

All nice and cool.

Head speed at 70% on the governor equals 1650 rpm on the head. I could bring this up to 1800 or so.

Conclusion: I am very happy with this conversion which has brought new life to my old shuttle. Flight times are better than expected.

EDIT: There is plenty of power available but the gear ratio restricts the performance slightly. It is perfect for what I wanted as the shuttle was never going to be a 3d machine at 7.5Ib weight. I am interested to hear about the other pinion from this thread:

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t268748p1/

It would let me raise the headspeed alot more. For now though I am happy to leave things as they are. Thumbs up for Kontronik again guys. They really are in a league of their own but at a price

I would welcome feedback or opinions guys


Regards

Fergus
11-21-2007 01:34 PM
 
 
csc
Senior Heliman
Location: Nampa, ID

What motor did you go with?

______________________
Shuttle RG
Shuttle RG/M
eShuttle
11-21-2007 03:13 PM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Motor: Tango 45-09
ESC: Jazz 80-6-18
Battery: Flightpower 5s 5000mAh Evo

Regards

Fergus
11-21-2007 03:15 PM
 
 
fergus
Veteran
Location: Ireland

Got in a few more flights with fast circuits, large loops a couple of inverted climbouts and stall turns

8 minute flights without issue. All temps really low. 3750mAh put back into the packs. I would recommend this route for anyone wishing to convert the shuttle.

Regards

Fergus
12-18-2007 01:45 PM
 
 
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e-Electric Conversions > Shuttle on 5s
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