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E-flite . Next D . Fast Lad Performance

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Raptor 50 flybarless setup
 
 
DTM
Senior Heliman
Location: Belgium

I got interested to try out a flybarless machine after seeing these machines in action at the 3D masters and with the CSM 720 gyros this didn't seem all that difficult.
Where most people start out with a ccpm machine, I chose a raptor 50 to convert, because that is what I had and because it seemed easy to adapt to flybarless operation.
Necessary parts were:
-2x CSM 720
-Hobby Taiwan metal head (headblock and grips only- headblock was cosmetically modified)
-Metal grip post from a Raptor 90 SE (to get 0 delta offset)
-Some R30 link rods (about 55 mm length)

The washout driver was easily constructed using the existing washout assembly with 1 (trimmed) washout arm fitted. A set screw was screwed in the remaining hole, effectivly locking up the washout base. With the base at 10 mm from the headblock, there is enough pitch movement.

The gyros were fitted at the front (not much room left), the supplied mounting method proved a bit soft, so I temporarily added some tape around the gyros to limit any swinging effects.

Cyclic pitch of +/- 10° was no problem, the collective however was off the scale and I had to reduce the pitch ATV to about 50%.

Flying went OK with the settings I found on the web, however after a few flights I modified them quite a lot. This was mostly to adjust the "feel" of the controls.



These are my elevator settings after about 6 test flights. The feel is very much like a flybar setup. Aileron settings proved to be uncritical.





After a few flights I fitted the metal pitch lever, extended with a cf beam to adjust the pitch range. This allowed for full resolution on the pitch servo and made the pitch feel more firm.



The Raptor 90 SE posts fit well. Using the original posts with much delta offset caused some bad vibrations during certain manuoevres.

After about 10 flights I must say it flies nicely, good response in stationary manuoevres and as much response as you can handle. Tx gain is at around 70% and I'm still upping it (don't really know if it's needed) The reduced drag and increased power is noticeably but not spectacular.
For people that just fly around, they will be OK with the standard settings of the gyro, if you want to do some 3D, you will have tot tinker somewhat.
Hope this info helps those who want to do a similar conversion.
08-13-2007 Over year old.
 
 
garyinbg
Heliman
Location: Bulgaria

It looks really good

Thanks for posting this. I am running a couple of Zero G 600 EPs and want to go flybarless. I will be going with a different set of electronics but like the look of the head and grips. V useful info re the Raptor 90 arms as well, again thanks.
Is there a site to go to for the head parts... I'll try the name you gave and put .com on the end, but should that not work I would appretiate the site name.

Good luck with future development and I for one would love to read how it goes.

Gary
10-07-2007 Over year old.
 
 
garyinbg
Heliman
Location: Bulgaria

Hi again DTM
just been looking for that head set and to see what you did re fitting the head button in to what I take it was the space for the flybar setup.
You did a very nice job on that.

I will definately be looking at taking tha same route and changing the ali head I have in the same way.

Did you try changing the damping at all. If not what are you using Red / Black or aftermarket

Thanks again

Gary
10-07-2007 Over year old.
 
 
DTM
Senior Heliman
Location: Belgium

Hi Gary,
I just had a friend turn down the headblock on a lathe and fitted a headbutton from a micro helicopter in the resulting hole.
I am currently using the red dampers which seem to work fine for me. No problems with the setup besides from a slight pitch up tendency when flying into strong wind at high speed. I am going to experiment with some wider chord blades now because I think the NHP razors don't have enough cyclic power and therefor cause the pitching at high speed.
The Hobby Taiwan head is sold by many shops, I think RC models distribute them.
10-11-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Super-Hornet
Veteran
Location: Singapore

Hi DTM

I not sure about this but I think your "slight pitch up tendency" maybe due to u are using 0 Delta. Your blade pitch unable to "autocorrect" during teetering. I maybe wrong, but that is just a guess.

SH
10-12-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

That makes sense... I've been learning a little bit about delta offset lately.

(I'm thinking out loud here.)
Problem:
Imagine the blades "teetering" like a playground see-saw.
The advancing blade wants to teeter upward as a result of high lift from oncoming wind, and the retreating blade wants to teeter downward due to the lack of lift. The advancing blade generates more lift, which is then translated into a pitch-up effect thanks to 90° gyroscopic procession.

Solution, Delta offset:
Since you have leading edge grip control, It would make sense to me to use slightly shorter extensions from the grips to offset the ball link from center. (exactly how much shorter I don't know, you'd need to experiment). As the advancing blade teeters up, the offset ball link would cause a bit of pitch to be removed. The opposite would happen to the retreating blade since it wants to teeter downward.

Result:
This would produce a slight pitch down effect, which would only happen in fast forward or fast rearward flight. This slight pitch down effect would potentially curb the slight pitch-up tendency in FFF.

If you were using trailing edge grip control, you'd need slightly longer extensions to get the same effect, otherwise it would have the opposite effect and compound the problem even more.

Super Hornet, does that make sense? I'm only beginning to understand Delta offset so if you know more than I, please contribute!

I may have it backwards, but it's worth experimenting with. By changing delta, the angle of the link will change relative to the main shaft, but the swashplate phase timing (90° from blade) should not change.

..........
Dave
10-12-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Super-Hornet
Veteran
Location: Singapore

Hi Dave

Yup. I think what u explain above is correct.

Out of Topic:
I once did try to use trailing edge controlling on the same configuration that I previously use for leading edge controlling. It ends up having the heli very prone to go rocking movement.

SH
10-13-2007 Over year old.
 
 
DTM
Senior Heliman
Location: Belgium

Actually, when I look at it closely, the control balls are actually not exactly at the center with my configuration. They are actually a little bit too long, which indeed causes some delta offset in the wrong direction, oops . I think the effect however is reduced by the very stiff damping, hence it only shows up in very strong wind. I'll try turning down the control arms to zero offset first to see if it has the desired effect. Thanks for the input Dave.

I am currently still flying the flybarless raptor 50(havent changed the settings yet) every weekend and I am absolutely loving it. It has a much faster cyclic response than anything with a flybar I've flown so far, yet it's not unstable at all. No abnormal wear can be seen on servos or mechanics. I read in another post that the pirouetting stuff is not that easy with the CSM system but I haven't noticed this. Chaos and pirouetting stuff goes just as well as with other machines. A lot of people have also commented on the improved auto performance but this I can't confirm, imho it autos just as well with flybar...
Another plus side is that crashes are mostly cheaper (demonstrated after doing a low inverted hover on an empty tank
10-13-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Super-Hornet
Veteran
Location: Singapore

I not sure about autorotation in flybarless... but one thing for sure is that in flybarless, you still have good cyclic control when the rotor RPM drop. That is because you control the blade pitch directly... not by paddles. Maybe that is why some say it perform better in autorotate because u do not waste much of the rotor spinning energy by the friction of the paddles during changing in cyclics.

As for the offset, if you want to follow real helicopter, then it 3 degree offset. Having 0 offset meaning there is no autocorrection.

For your case, the blade grip linkage extension should be shorter (further away from the center of the hub)

SH
10-13-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Wheelhaus
Veteran
Location: Denver

I think the autorotation performance is a wash. It will spool quicker when you begin to drop, but it doesn't hold as much inertia since some of the head components (including a heavy steel flybar and 1-2oz of paddle inertia) are missing.

..........
Dave
10-14-2007 Over year old.
 
 
DTM
Senior Heliman
Location: Belgium

After reading about it on the forum, I tried some fast stationary piros and it does indeed wobble quite a bit during the piro. It's not one of my frequently performed maneuvers so for now I don't really mind but it would be nice to remove this bug...
10-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
garyinbg
Heliman
Location: Bulgaria

Hi DTM
long time no visit but thanks for the info re the head.
I have since bought a Logo 500 3D V Bar with the V-Stab unit and boy it flies so beautifully and totally locked in directly from the box.
With that unit the Delta offset on the head is '0' so I would endeavour to get yours there so as not to inccur any of the negative effects from this..
There is indeed stiff damping in the Mikado head and it needs this..

The V Stab unit offers parameters to stop the lift and pirouetting effects you mentioned and my won flies fast and true and piros like a F3C craft. It also piro flips with the best of the 3D flybar heads.

I will be making the Raptor head flybarless but with this V-Stab unit and will let you know how that goes.

Talk soon


Gary
10-21-2007 Over year old.
 
 
darkfa8
Key Veteran
Location: Eatontown, NJ, USA

any updates?

- Dan G. -
02-21-2008 04:07 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Andriyka
Heliman
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Hobby Taiwan metal head -

Hi DTM,
you wrote:

Quote 
Necessary parts were:
....
-Hobby Taiwan metal head (headblock and grips only- headblock was cosmetically modified)
....

Where it is possible to buy headblock ?

Regards, Andriy.
11-21-2008 04:58 PM
 
 
DTM
Senior Heliman
Location: Belgium

the headblock comes with the Hobby Taiwan head... I just removed the top part that holds the flybar carrier.
11-22-2008 10:06 AM
 
 
Andriyka
Heliman
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Thank you, DTM, for information.
11-22-2008 01:08 PM
 
 
HugeOne
Key Veteran
Location: Quebec, Canada

You can also use a Top dragon grips, just change the grips posts with top dragon posts for the raptor 90.

-Hugo



Raptor e620 w/V-bar, Tango 45-06, Phoenix 85HV, TrueRC 12S1P 4000mAh
11-22-2008 01:12 PM
 
 
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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Raptor 50 flybarless setup
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