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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > How the community deals with safety issues.

RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

Quote
There are steps to take to minimize injuries, but to some that would be like imposing a speed limit on NASCAR

NASCAR runs restrictor plates. They prevent the cars from going as fast as they could.

08-14-2007 03:27 PM

blt4ice
Senior Heliman
Location: Newark, DE

I think that everyone needs to remember that THEY are responsible for their Heli and its actions regardless of the situation.

We see many pilots who have and maintain control over their well tuned machine. We also have 2.4ghz coming into the mainstream that will help with glitches and lockouts. However.

We are starting to see many pilots flying haphazardly towards the safety of the flight line and the crowd that gathers to watch. Some that come to watch do not know of the risks or are not aware of them. Imagine that when the heli hits the dirt the shrapnel that flys from the impact area, I am sure there is a high probabilty of an injury. Next is control, you may have it but there are too many other variables that can come into play to cause loss of control.

I think that safety needs to be looked over again and some actions need to be taken. The close to the ground stunts need to be far enough from the pilot/spotter/spectators in order to keep the risk of shrapnel from causing severe/permanent injury (I would say you'll lose an eye, but I think that would be made fun of). We have all seen in many other fields of hobbies/sports of changes made because people get hurt or die. Look at baseball, when most of us played as kids we had a helmet and that was it. The pros at times had helmets as an option. Now they have shin gaurds ear guards, neck guards and so on, why, because someone got hurt and they saw a way to prevent it. Unfortunately that was AFTER they got hurt.

People are starting to see now that someone is getting hurt and someone WILL get hurt. I think the ideas in this thread need to be looked at seriously and local clubs should start enforcing these rules to a higher level at the events that they hold.

Lets prevent something from happening rather than learning from a mistake.

Brian
Heli tools used: Torch, Pipe Wrench, 4 ft. crowbar

08-14-2007 03:31 PM

whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

I don't think anyone here thinks heli's will ever be 100% safe. I think we all except that. The problem as I see it is that there is a very fine line between pushing the limits, and flying like a jackass.

Mike

08-14-2007 03:41 PM

Raffy
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Preserve Life before Death take it's toll!

08-14-2007 04:28 PM

SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

I find that the best place to stand when watching someone else fly is right behind them practically hugging them! they are going to make every effort to not hit themselves and when they move you move with them.

Let me ask this...

Were the spectators and cameramen at IRCHA forced to be that close or were they that close because they wanted to best shot?

I dont think they were forced to be there. If you dont feel safe standing or watching in a particular location then YOU should move away. Plain and simple. Why should EVERYONE move if one person didnt feel safe?

I guess I should drive 20mph slower than the limit cause granny doesnt feel safe driving faster...

08-14-2007 04:42 PM

playfair
Key Veteran
Location: Rochester, NY

Demo Area Layout

The spectator area, including the bleachers at center stage, was about 50' from the flight line, even before it was moved out. That's about as far away as you can be and still retain some of the magnificence of the flight!

The pit area officially started about 10' in front of the spectator area, and was comprised of the on-deck demo pilots and their spotters. Everyone here was asked to sit/kneel so those behind them could see.

On the front line of the pits were the photographers. Even this was at least 10' from the featured pilot, who stood on the flight line with their spotter.

In all honesty, I wouldn't change anything about the setup.
These accidents woke people up, and will surely make us think twice about the dangers, and take whatever personal precautions you deem necessary. Obviously the closer you are, the more attention should be exercised!

On the lighter side, isn't it just a little reassuring to know there's a decent chance of surviving a model helicopter attack?
That is, until some manufacturer decides their blades fly better if the leading edge is razor sharp...

The sky is our canvas

08-14-2007 05:12 PM

HOMEPAGE

whirlyspud
Veteran
Location: USA

"I dont think they were forced to be there. If you dont feel safe standing or watching in a particular location then YOU should move away. Plain and simple. Why should EVERYONE move if one person didnt feel safe?"

I agree with your saying for the most part, but should I as a pilot flying from a flight station have to move back out of my station because some guy three stations down from me is doing piro figure 8's and is bringing his machine in way too close to me on the turns? I don't think so. I've had couple times at ff's where a pilot was putting his machine closer to me and the other pilots than he was to even himself. Close to the point where I fealt the rotor wash. I don't care what anyone else says, If I feel your rotor wash, your way too damn close to me. If someone came up to me and started swinging a baseball bat within a few feet of my head I would not stand for it. I trust rc helicopters alot less than a baseball bat.

Mike

08-14-2007 05:55 PM

SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

Quote
agree with your saying for the most part, but should I as a pilot flying from a flight station have to move back out of my station because some guy three stations down from me is doing piro figure 8's and is bringing his machine in way too close to me on the turns?

I would have to say no to that one and that would point to a layout flaw in the pilot/flying stations. If that were the case, then they need to be moved or the pilot needs to be talked to.

There are extenuating circumstances to every situation and a broad general ruling at one site wont necessarily make sense at another.

Ultimately, it is up to each pilot to take responsibility for themselves and thier equipment under thier control. Some of these "Pros" as some call them are really good at banging the sticks around but when it comes down to finess and fine control, they are lacking...

08-14-2007 06:34 PM

MJWS
Key Veteran
Location: Airdrie, AB - Canada

I'm voting for mandatory helmets, mouthguards, and body armor. If we stick Alan and Daniel in chainmail gloves maybe we'll be able to keep up with their sticks.

tic

08-15-2007 01:04 AM

steve9534
Key Veteran
Location: yakima, wa.

Safety

I've had a number of opportunities to see Mike Scoles fly. He's truly one of the top tier pilots and I would congratulate him on calling for more safety consciousness. I went to a recent FF and saw an internationally known, professional pilot crash twice. Another equally well known pilot got low enough to take out his t/r gears and send the heli spinning on one flight, and came down hard enough to break the landing gear on another flight. To say that these are professionals and imply that they are not liable to crashing is a fallacy. The issue of safety is dependent primarily on distance and the farther away, the better. Sooner or later, if we don't police ourselves, someone else will be doing it for us. Whether or not those concerned about safety are wimps, morons, or whatever is basically irrelevant because if the accidents keep happening there won't be any insurance coverage, no one will allow us to fly them at their fields, the manufacturers and distributors will quit making and/or selling them due to the risk involved, or the prices will be so high only those with Bill Gates income can afford them. It may not be all of the above, but some combination of one or more will surely happen. Stupid is to continue insisting that we can continue as we have. steve.

08-15-2007 01:42 AM

krashtagain
Veteran
Location: ohio

I'm trying to digest all of this . Mechanics and human ..... hmmmm....whenever you mix it up with those 2 items there are going to be injuries , and that's all there is to it . I feel a safe standoff should be outlined by the sanctioning body and if you don't like how close they make it haul you a$$ further away . Distance is'nt always the answer either , sometimes the further away means the more velocity on impact .

So my .02 for those who give a crap is , make it safe for you and yours and let the others worry about them and theirs !!!

Learn to 3D or die trying !!!!

08-15-2007 06:42 AM

SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

What is the actual percentage of pilots that fly wrecklessly in our community?

Rules and regulations made on the basis of opinion are an egregious
mistake.

08-15-2007 01:28 PM

RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

Quote
What is the actual percentage of pilots that fly wrecklessly in our community?

Well then the better question is how many people crash? I don't think anyone is saying these pilots were "reckless." It is more a case of flying on the very edge of the envelope. When something bad happens, it can get ugly. Another 10 feet out and it may be nothing but a great crash.

Most real sports have safety rules in place such as the restrictor plates in NASCAR. Different government organizations such as OSHA, MSHA...ect all have rules to protect people. These rules are well thought out based on data. Right now our safety rules are set in place by "guessing" what will be safe. It seems that maybe those rules were not enough.

I'd be for a study on accidents so we could have some real data to know what the distances should be and not guesses on what we think they should be.

Quote
Rules and regulations made on the basis of opinion are an egregious mistake.

Thats what we have right now.

08-15-2007 02:12 PM

ErichF
Key Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

Hey get this...one of my local clubs needs all crashes at the field reported. This is required by the Southwest FL Water Mismanagement District for environmental "impact" studies concerning the presense of the flying field on the land. I'm not sure what details are needed, such as location on the field, fuel in use, etc...

This might be an interesting case study.

None of the heli guys fly there anymore though. Plankers basically got to be too damned much to take.

Erich

Team Kyosho Regional Field Representative

08-15-2007 02:20 PM

SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

Quote
It is more a case of flying on the very edge of the envelope. When something bad happens, it can get ugly. Another 10 feet out and it may be nothing but a great crash

some would say that is reckless behavior especially when combined with close proximity to the ground/spectators/pits/etc...

I am all for rules that would require flight to be away by a certain distance but until that happens, its up to each and every pilot to fly in a safe manner and if a spectator doesnt like it then its up to them to move out of the way.

One thing to consider - do the "pros" fly in so close to them because it helps them detect small deviations in the flight of the helicopter? Flying further away would make that more difficult. Granted a .90 size bird can be flown quite a ways away and still be very easily seen.

I personally believe that these "pros" do it in close and near the ground because the spectators believe that its just that much more impressive. Case in point - oohs and aaahhs when pilots are doing maneuvers close to the ground.

I know that when i go to full scale airshows such as airventure or sun n' fun, I love it when the aircraft are right on the deck. Then at some other airshows, some pilots can't get the waiver to fly at low altitude and they do thier aerobatic routine at 1500 feet and its pretty friggin boring.

Just some food for thought...

08-15-2007 04:41 PM

RonHill
Veteran
Location: ..

Quote
I am all for rules that would require flight to be away by a certain distance but until that happens, its up to each and every pilot to fly in a safe manner and if a spectator doesnt like it then its up to them to move out of the way.

I agree that if you don't feel safe, you should move 100%. We are responsible for ourselves in the end. The only issue I have with that is some think Pros do not make mistakes and are willing to trust them more...You can see that theme in this thread. Also, some think that if we don't like them being flown close to where we stand, we should grow a set of balls...ect.

Quote
One thing to consider - do the "pros" fly in so close to them because it helps them detect small deviations in the flight of the helicopter? I personally believe that these "pros" do it in close and near the ground because the spectators believe that its just that much more impressive.

I think both. When I really need to work on a manuver I start high, then bring it lower since I can see it better. My Kaos's got much better when I brought them lower...When I started working on the other direction, I took them back up. Yes, being low adds excitement. I think that should be taken into consideration.

Quote
I know that when i go to full scale airshows such as airventure or sun n' fun, I love it when the aircraft are right on the deck. Then at some other airshows, some pilots can't get the waiver to fly at low altitude and they do thier aerobatic routine at 1500 feet and its pretty friggin boring.

Agreed. But to get the waiver all you need to do is apply and prove you can perform safely. I know plenty of people with waivers. One other rule for real pilots at airshows is you are not supposed to put energy AT the spectators. So you will see most manuvers are right to left, or left to right, not towards the crowd line.

Some would argue that a heli being low is safer since when it crashes it will not go as far...Heck, I agree. It is not altitude that is the issue but distance from other people. Not even the distance from the pilot...He has control and can do what he thinks he can handle and he pays the price for screwing up....But only the distance to others is my issue.

I'd like to see pilots get as close as they feel safe, but have the heli far enough away from others to be safe in most cases....I don't know what that distance is, but it seems what they were doing was too close.

Anyone have an idea of a good distance?

08-15-2007 05:19 PM

SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

I think the AMA should take a look at how the FAA regulates full size airshows and then adopt a lot of the same ideas.

08-15-2007 05:22 PM

marked23
Veteran
Location: Lynnwood, WA

When an accident happens follow this:

1. Were existing rules applied?
No: there's your problem
Yes: continue to #2

2. Was there something about the accident that could have
been prevented if the rules were practically improved?
Yes: improve the rules
No: Accept existing risk

We have the AMA safety code and AMA field design recomendations. If ignoring any of those parameters contributed to an accident, then the problem is that the rules aren't being followed.

New rules are slow to come up, and with good reason. We all enjoy this hobby and it would be a shame to ruin it with a heavy rulebook. So it's pretty normal for one or two accidents to be written off as acceptable risk. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is normal. If a deficiency in the rules is identified, it will certainly be corrected over time.

If "the pros" pick and choose which rules they want to ignore, then they have to accept the consequence that comes with that choice. And it's no surprise that "the pros" are banking on a history of good luck... because none of them can ever repay the damage of a serious accident.

08-15-2007 05:45 PM

SSN Pru
Elite Veteran
Location: Massachusetts

Quote
acceptable risk

two magic words. acceptable risk is everywhere!

your plan makes sense to me!

08-15-2007 05:48 PM

Ace Dude
Elite Veteran
Location: USA

"Those who do not govern themselves wisely will be governed by despots."

I'd hate to see a small number of accidents ruin it for everyone, but no accident is acceptable. In our litigation happy society here in the USA (get rich, sue your neighbor) you can bet the AMA is taking these accidents very seriously. I would expect some major changes for next year. Two individuals hit by a heli is totally unacceptable. I would not expect the AMA to sweep these two accidents under the rug. I'm glad no one was seriously hurt.

08-16-2007 11:00 AM

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