RunRyder - Jason Krause's 600N Pro, almost no upgrades

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Align T-REX 600N 700N > Jason Krause's 600N Pro, almost no upgrades

n808
Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

I had the pleasure of witnessing some truly amazing flying by Jason Krause, Matt Botos, Nigel Brown, Mike Scoles and several others this weekend at the Snohomish, WA, fun fly.

Jason was very helpful in talking about his 600N, details of its design, his opinion on nitro vs electric for larger helis, and a few tidbits about upcoming products (new pipe, Trex 500).

His 600N Pro is all stock, (almost) no upgrades, and he flew the heck out of it. One thing that caught my attention, was what he said about the lack of usefulness of the metal fan upgrades. In particular he said they suck too much power from the engine. He said they had tested the 3Dx fan with an electric motor, and that it took 40% more power to spin at 15,000 RPM than the Align fan. He helped design the Align metal fan for minimal power draw, but had not had any trouble with the plastic fans. He glues his two magnets with a drop of CA. Biased opinion, of course, but still interesting.

Next time I take out the engine for maintenance, I will probably try the stock fan. I installed the 3Dx fan before the first flight.

EDIT: Upon closer study of the photo I took of the head setup, it appears that the top mixing arms are metal...

07-29-2007 11:34 PM

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dannyh5
Senior Heliman
Location: England

I don't think I will change my mixing arms, the stock arms are not exactly flexible.

07-29-2007 11:42 PM

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DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

Quote

In particular he said they suck too much power from the engine. He said they had tested the 3Dx fan with an electric motor, and that it took 40% more power to spin at 15,000 RPM than the Align fan. He helped design the Align metal fan for minimal power draw, but had not had any trouble with the plastic fans. He glues his two magnets with a drop of CA. Biased opinion, of course, but still interesting

Yes but he's talking like the stock plastic fan is 100% efficant.

And uses 45% more power than no fan all,those reps and especially him talk out both sides of their mouths.

07-29-2007 11:57 PM

ckoelliker
Key Veteran
Location: St. Simons, GA

The original post said that it took 40% more power to turn it than the Align fan.

Quote
In particular he said they suck too much power from the engine. He said they had tested the 3Dx fan with an electric motor, and that it took 40% more power to spin at 15,000 RPM than the Align fan.

07-30-2007 12:02 AM

bsc
Heliman
Location: Villa Park, IL

Quote
One thing that caught my attention, was what he said about the lack of usefulness of the metal fan upgrades. In particular he said they suck too much power from the engine.

Very few people would have the desire to waste their time and money replacing the stock fan with a metal one if the stock fan worked as it should. The stock fan is probably requiring less power because the fins are deforming and laying over when spun since they are made out of such thin plastic.

Numerous people had problems with that fan/hub unit and it was a very measurable thing as you could see where the fan was rubbing the housing, causing magnets to be thrown. It also didn't help that you couldn't tighten the plastic fan all of the way down to the hub without deforming the fan either... the hubs are not completely flat and will cause a plastic fan to bend. An aluminum fan has enough strength that with a little filing of the hub, you can get it down flat and still tighten the screws down completely.

If his one-way bearing wasn't locking every flight, then he wasn't flying a stock machine either.

Btw, I think he designed an AWESOME machine in the 600N, but it does have a couple of issues which need to be addressed.

07-30-2007 01:58 AM

WJackson
Key Veteran
Location: Smyrna, Delaware

Sand the top of the fan down a .5mm , drill out cups a little so magnets sit flush, high point balance , center fan shroud , and go fly !!! I'm with Jason on this one!

that thing pushes lots of air and weights nothing!

Bill Jackson

07-30-2007 02:10 AM

J.D. Wilson
Elite Veteran
Location: Nashville, TN

I'd like to hear from some pilots who are using a metal fan. Has anyone noticed a difference in flight/performance?

Let your flying do the talking - don't talk about your flying

07-30-2007 02:21 AM

ckoelliker
Key Veteran
Location: St. Simons, GA

The 40% more power is still some what misleading. I do not think the 3dx fan robs your set up of 40% of its power. What % of the engines power does it take to turn the fan? I imagine it is low. Probably less than one percent. So if the 3dx fan takes 40% more than less than one percent. It is really a negligible amount.

07-30-2007 02:40 AM

n808
Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Let me just add that I am very impressed with how my 3Dx fan is made. It seems very precisely machined, well engineered and thought out, and I have not had any problems with it. It installed perfectly, I could tighten it a lot, and seems to cool the engine well. I can not, however, say anything about its properties in terms of aerodynamics, power draw or cooling effect.

And with regards to the top mixing arms in metal, someone else mentioned to me earlier that the stock plastic can indeed flex so much that it is possible to notice a difference with hard flying. I am sure I can not, and will stick with the stock mixer arms.

ckoelliker: Yes, that's true. I do not know the amount of power the fan draws from the engine.

07-30-2007 02:41 AM

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baddraptor
Elite Veteran
Location: valencia, ca- usa

I have personally used 3 different fans. Stock, 3dx and gforce he??.
I only had ONE set of magnets thrown from my stock fan, MY FAULT. They were not flush as per instructions in manual(my cd manual never stated this, I found it on-line).
There is no flight difference in any of these fans. They all work as intended if they are installed properly.

Now, with the 3Dx fan it does run a little cooler, so I could lean it out a little more. I got a little more power out of it. Its balance was dead on perfect.

I am NOT a great pilot. Just aerobatics and soft 3d. These are just what I have noticed with My personal Trex..

The major problem with the stock fan is NOT the fan but the fun hub. It did not run true.

If your fan is hitting the shroud, it is because YOU the user did not take the time to install it properly and spin the fan in the shroud to make sure it had clearence. If you are loosing magnets, its because You the user did not make sure you had adequate clearence for your sensor.

Again, this is My opinion with my bird. I have had ZERO problems with mine that were not MY fault during set up. This is not a heli you can just throw together and fly. You do have to take your time and make sure everything fits just right. It has been designed to allow for clearencing of certain parts.

**Unattended children will be givin a shot of espresso and a puppy**

07-30-2007 02:42 AM

baddraptor
Elite Veteran
Location: valencia, ca- usa

Krause should know, he designed it. The Heli works perfect as he intended.

**Unattended children will be givin a shot of espresso and a puppy**

07-30-2007 02:49 AM

DAT
Heliman
Location: Puyallup, WA

Jason also had some great info on the new Align one piece header pipe. We talked with Jason a lot about weight and performance. The new Align pipe weights about 125grams. The MP5 weights in at around 185grams. Please do not quote me, I am working off of memory from our conversation. Jason was running the new Align pipe and the performance of his setup was unreal. It was truly amazing watching what he was capable of doing with the 600N.

I had quite a few conversations with Jason over the weekend and he was very helpful. He was more then happy to answer any question that you had. He would also take the time to fly your machine and give you input if needed.

I got some great video of Jason doing auto's onto a table then hovering inverted until the blades hit the table. Then lift off into an awesome auto.

Thanks to all the pros at the fun fly. They were all great. Matt Botos, Todd Bennett, Nigel Brown and Jason Krause.

Great weekend

If I don't crash, I'm not trying hard enough.

07-30-2007 03:37 AM

Ozydego
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, Ohio

n808, did JK have anything to say about his one way bearing... like what he uses as far as lubing it so it does not lock up...?

But Honey, I can't live with just stock.....

07-30-2007 03:38 AM

j5coat
Veteran
Location: Phoenix

if your having problems replace the bearing! the sleeve is not tight enough in the bearing causing the rollers in the bearing to come out to far and lock. i replaced mine and the sleeve had a much tighter fit and everything has been fine, only put a little bit of tri flow on it. seems their one way bearing source was not staying very consistent.

Trex 700, Trex 600n

07-30-2007 03:44 AM

hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

How was the 40% power draw number obtained? Did they dyno that puppy

I agree with Jason Krause on this one... the stock fan blows

Member Bog Troll Club #1

07-30-2007 03:45 AM

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J.D. Wilson
Elite Veteran
Location: Nashville, TN

I would almost bet that the infamous one way did not come up in casual conversation. lol

Let your flying do the talking - don't talk about your flying

07-30-2007 03:46 AM

n808
Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re one way: sadly, I forgot to ask when I was talking to him, since I haven't had any trouble with mine after 50 flights and a couple of crashes. I cleaned out the grease, did not use the supplied grease, and applied some "wickedly fast" (very thin) bearing oil before I flew first flight.

07-30-2007 03:55 AM

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J.D. Wilson
Elite Veteran
Location: Nashville, TN

I am very afraid to say this, but... I have not had a problem with my bearing after a TON of flying. Yes, I know I just but the curse on myself. Why did I do that?

Let your flying do the talking - don't talk about your flying

07-30-2007 04:39 AM

DAT
Heliman
Location: Puyallup, WA

[quote I agree with Jason Krause on this one... the stock fan blows]

Krause was running the stock plastic fan and was happy to defend it's ability to proform properly.

I know the one-way came up because he gave a friend some new parts to try. Maybe they will reply.

If I don't crash, I'm not trying hard enough.

07-30-2007 04:53 AM

hootowl
Elite Veteran
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

Quote
Krause was running the stock plastic fan and was happy to defend it's ability to proform properly.

There are an awful lot of users that disagree. Since when has it become rocket science to install a plastic fan. What's different about this one that previous methods that worked on ALL other brand of fan do not work so well on this one?

AT least if there is a special way to install the magnet, make it known in the manual.

Member Bog Troll Club #1

07-30-2007 04:55 AM

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Align T-REX 600N 700N > Jason Krause's 600N Pro, almost no upgrades

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