RunRyder - G10 lower and upper side frames

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Bergen R/C Helicopters > G10 lower and upper side frames

syon
Heliman
Location: tualatin,OR

304 SS, not 316... had to correct that.

a heli is like a marriage, most of the time it works, the rest it don't.

09-06-2007 03:01 AM

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

How many of those frames and tranny's are you going to invest in?

Chris Bergen

09-06-2007 03:06 AM

syon
Heliman
Location: tualatin,OR

4 sets of frames at the moment, and when the prototype of the tranny is completed, i would estimate i would have 4 sets made, everything else is off the shelf type resources.

a heli is like a marriage, most of the time it works, the rest it don't.

09-07-2007 07:48 PM

syon
Heliman
Location: tualatin,OR

if it works out well, i may just make a fleet of Helicam ship for my own personal use (5 should be plenty), but would be willing to market it under the right conditions.

a heli is like a marriage, most of the time it works, the rest it don't.

09-07-2007 07:50 PM

Shadowfox
Senior Heliman
Location: ABQ,NM

ya know I love my Bergen's dearly, I am starting machinist school in the spring so I can be the next Chris/Larry Bergen.

They are legends I know, but a fella has to aim high right??

But I have worked on/flew my share of German helis and I must say Vario/henseliet/(That company who makes Tornado/Revolution 90 helis) they do think out side the box...

My thoughts on Bergen gasser for year 2010:

I really like the Revolution 90 frame that is CNC'd out of a single chunk of alum....So My Bergen will have the G26/fan shroud in the nose hard mounted to my 3" wide CNC alum chunk of metal frame that has been chiseled, lightened, etc... designed only support the main bearing blocks/g26 eng/main gear/tail drive pinion/main shaft and head/tail boom mount...Thats it!

Ya'll follow so far? Take a 3" wide billet of alum and cut/design into it to support the main drive components of a gas heli...Strong, should be light, but very complex machining CNC wise...

Ok... a stout drive belt to the maingear from the G26. Tail will be TTtube..
Ok now take G-10 plates for the radio/servo tray (Bergen Observer style control sys) and soft rubber mount them to the CNC Alum power module aft of the main shaft..
The gas tank will have its own G-10 plates soft mounted to the alum CNC module right under the main gear...

I see it soo vividly, maybe I'll have the skill one day to design/build it.

It would help with Bergen EB nose wieght, bring the CG more axial and higher, cure most vibe issues...

What ya'll think?

Garland

09-07-2007 09:42 PM

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Hmmmm, interesting possibilities.......

Chris Bergen

09-07-2007 11:54 PM

HFr
Senior Heliman
Location: Lagrange ,in USA

Chris ,, you better sign this guy up to be your CNC operator before he finishes school and someone else grabs him ...
Garland ,, keep thinking,, it has possibilities that I kind of like .

09-09-2007 01:09 PM

Shadowfox
Senior Heliman
Location: ABQ,NM

Thanks! I think RC heli sport is like every other high performance endeavor....Composites are here to stay there is no denying it. There is no advantage to metal side frames.

To stay competitive companies like Bergen, MA, will NEED a electric performance heli. Its all about power to wieght. This rule goes for gassers and nitros. Nothing new here.

Bergen, I feel, has side stepped this issue due to the success of their Industrial arm, but MA hasnt been so lucky.

MA's RAzor came in too heavy though I do like some of its features. The reps had to fly their hearts out to sell this heli...The canopy not being ready issue shot em in the foot.

I dont have a EB Intrepid yet but my Intrepid nitros have decent power to weight. If the Bergen gassers can get rid of the fly bar using the new tech on the market, and lose .5 lb just for the giggles of it ...I think the 90 market would be hurting!

09-10-2007 04:34 AM

gyan
Key Veteran
Location: Surrey, BC Canada

I didn't like the lack of material on the lower side frame forward skid bar attach point. I also wanted the tail higher on my Intrepid. So built my own aluminum lower side frames to correct both issues. Made from 6062T4 they are quite rigid & have sustained many of my "Oh that wasn't too hard of a landing was it??" Many that would have fractured the forward attach point mentioned earlier.

09-10-2007 04:54 AM

syon
Heliman
Location: tualatin,OR

cost to make 4 heli using local machine shop

Heres the latest up date for cost to produce 4 units (without engine)-

total for the entire heli is 475.89, tack on another 300 for engine for each, and another 300 each for the radio gear.

currently testing the new tranny with loads up to 25 lbs total,
thus far, it seems the main gear can not handle the load (delrin), so we are cutting a metal gear, 3 to be exact of different material (6061 alum, stainless and of course, enhanced nylon)

so far, we have done stress testing, in theory , on the solid works (to provide data), and 2nd , we are doing actual flight testing, at the moment, we are seeing the issues with the main gear, and it seems that its more of a material issue rather than a design issue, one thought on this is to redesign the pitch on the gear face (more planar), and also change out the tranny input gear to a more planar configuration.

3 aero engineers from boeing (friends of mine) are really throwing the ball at this to come up with a more load friendly set up, everything else has passed with flying colors.
so the cost so far to make 4 units is 475.89, divide that by 4 is 118.97
Mind you that does not include the material- so far the material has cost me roughly 150 bucks.

We are also doing designs on the main rotor blades, made of exotic material, but heres the kicker, the blade is actually an insert than slides over 3 main spars that mounts to a base unit which is affixed to the head via a bolt (think of it as 3 rods and the blade slides over this, and then there is a end cap for the tip that is threaded into the rods to hold the blade body in place...)

hmm.. what do ya'll think...right now, we're just experimenting..
its the only way to actually break in the heli biz and make aftermarket products to support some of these heli freaks out there...

comments?

a heli is like a marriage, most of the time it works, the rest it don't.

09-17-2007 06:31 PM

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Very good!! Now your starting to add it all up!!

Bye the way, is that cost (118.97) just for the frames and tranny? Or for the ENTIRE heli?? Gearboxes, heads, tailboom, control systems...???

Quote
so far, that is what we are narrowing it down to as far as parts failure, and weaknesses seen for the application that its used for, i wouldn't recommend it for 3D flight, as i am not all that proficient in thinking in 3D as far as flying

Unfortunately, people WILL try to use it for purposes other than originally designed, and in ways that was not intended, and will build it in ways not originally envisioned....

Quote
hmm.. what do ya'll think...right now, we're just experimenting.. its the only way to actually break in the heli biz and make aftermarket products to support some of these heli freaks out there...

Exactly correct!! All of us, Century, MA, Bergen at least, started in this very fashion. Improving or upgrading existing models, or using the best of current models with improvements to come up with new models. As with most things, this is an evolution. the models 5 years from now will hopefully be improvements in materials, designs, price in what we have even today.

Chris Bergen

10-07-2007 03:10 PM

HFr
Senior Heliman
Location: Lagrange ,in USA

Man Syon I want two or three of those 118.97 complete exotic material helicopters of yours when you get them on the market ...at that price they should sell like hot cakes.

10-07-2007 03:23 PM

syon
Heliman
Location: tualatin,OR

total cost

that 118, so far, with tranny-

FYI- tranny frame has been integrated as 1 piece with the main gear and triple bearing block, and the only adjustment to make is on the engine .
its the only part that is needed to make the adustment on the lash, where as once the main gear and the tranny has been assembled, there is no need to set the lash.
The hardest part in all this is setting the centerline of everything, after seeing too many centerlines in solidworks, it was decided that it needed to be simplified graciously and dramatically, its one of those things that you really get tired of checking after a while.
(tranny lined up, clutch lined up, main gear/engine lined up, the list goes on).
The total idea behind all this is, more air time, and minimal time checking this and that for alignment, and taking out the guess work of trying to figure out the source of problems.
I have found that the prototype 1 piece tranny gear /main gear setup in a integrated frame tends to lessen the load on the gearing, or at least stabilize it and vibrations (high freq, and low freq.)
Got to admit, its one thing to fly, and another to sit through a designing phase on solidworks, making the assembly and then transcoding it into a format for 5 axis cnc, but its been worth it, having access to it at work makes it all that much easier to make these prototypes as well as access to other machine shops for frames.

I have been meaning to upload the pictures on here, but for some reason i have to wait for a "monday" to do this, and i forget, since i am in a rush to get to work.
maybe i could just email it to you, Chris and you could give me some ideas that might make this a success, i'll even lend the solidworks files to you, if you like.

a heli is like a marriage, most of the time it works, the rest it don't.

10-07-2007 05:38 PM

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Quote
Got to admit, its one thing to fly, and another to sit through a designing phase on solidworks, making the assembly and then transcoding it into a format for 5 axis cnc,

But it is kind of fun in it's own way!!

Quote

The hardest part in all this is setting the centerline of everything, after seeing too many centerlines in solidworks, it was decided that it needed to be simplified graciously and dramatically, its one of those things that you really get tired of checking after a while.
(tranny lined up, clutch lined up, main gear/engine lined up, the list goes on).
The total idea behind all this is, more air time, and minimal time checking this and that for alignment, and taking out the guess work of trying to figure out the source of problems.

NO, the hardest part is trying to think of all the different possible combinations you may run into or get requests for, such as, what if you want a different gear ratio?? Since you have it all tied together, now you have to have different pieces to accomodate, now how many of each do you make??

I would certainly love to take a look, and make possible recomendations, if necessary, but if, as you say, it all lines up perfectly, it should work perfectly, Right??

Chris Bergen

10-07-2007 11:33 PM

syon
Heliman
Location: tualatin,OR

it should line up

In theory, at least-

it looks good on paper /solidworks, but in reality, if you have the tolerance set real tight, then you just screwed yourself. i found that out the hard way, but it is, as you say, fun fun fun, and more coffee as well as cigs, and then more fun, even more fun when the chips are flying in the cutting area, and it actually takes shape.
and then the retro fit, and then the test flight, the only time there is any relief is when the heli sets down nicely, and purrs down to an idle, without the wobbling, and still have a little over 1/2 a tank left, and 5.1v on the batteries, you wonder if another flight is in order, or if you need to check everything to ensure performance.

aww, screw it, check it later, time to fly is now...

a heli is like a marriage, most of the time it works, the rest it don't.

10-10-2007 01:33 PM

axc157
Heliman
Location: new york

I was just catching up on this tread , there lots of bashing going on here
or is that Contructive Critism ?

still no pics of the rustproof frames
i need them for when i make my salt water landings

how is that COA approval thing going ? better get your pilots license - and your A&P and and a Repair Station License if you decide to make it a UAV for profit in the civillian field

I dont think any A&P Mech or Inspector will sign your logs on UAV that are intended for civillian use -- unless you have a DOD contract as a vendor for providing UAV platforms for Recon Work to the military and still then good luck

If an when the FAA decides to classify UAV most likely it will be by weight so your 306 frames will have to be scrapped for lighter material

as for checking here and there all aircraft fixed or rotary ones require inspection pre flight and so on

good luck with your "In Theory Gasser"

12-19-2007 12:56 AM

syon
Heliman
Location: tualatin,OR

Obviously

Key to all this is documentation on every part, pretty much like doing a first article on the immense project for COA-
But in having support from the local FAA office here, it just makes for good best practice in case they do come out with something where we have to vouch for every part, and every second that its in the air.

(FYI- the frames are made out of 316 SS, and not the substandard 306, which has a lower shear modulus as well as compression than that of 316)
I do fly this in the civilian world for AP, as i am heavily insured, and have taken the original intrepid to a newer level of performance for the AP field.
Rock solid in its performance, very stable, no RF interference, and having to replace parts has gone down significantly- my standard for changing out bearing on the frame, as well as the socket head bolts are every 40 of flight time, and i put in that much time in less than 2 weeks of flights.

I love the intrepid, and its design, i only have just made some personal tweaks with the help of a few Aeronautical engineers, as well as a local machine shop that is very interested in the helicopter aspect (they got a free rolling video of their facility, and now use it for their advertisement on various stations here.)
So, the "In Theory Gasser" is actually a reality, if you would like to order some of the lower and upper side frames, i can help with that- either 6061 aluminum or 316 SS.

i find your comments rather amusing, and lacking for a better word, uninformed.
At least there are those of us that are working with the local FAA to get on the good side , and to demonstrate that the heli's are as good as the actual real heli's, possibly more airworthy.
And there is no knocking going on against the bergen, it was just an initial start to something that i thought was a good idea.
As you probably don't know, Reality is born from an idea, its the "in-between" those 2 points that really takes alot of effort.

Chris- i hope that i have not offended you in reference to any comments i have made.

Syon

a heli is like a marriage, most of the time it works, the rest it don't.

12-30-2007 03:46 PM

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

No offence taken at all. All that really matters is that YOU are happy with your machine, it's performance, and reliability.

I may disagree with your selection of material, but I'm not the one who is out doing YOUR business, flying YOUR helicopter.

Got any pics?

Chris Bergen

12-31-2007 01:41 AM

Shadowfox
Senior Heliman
Location: ABQ,NM

well I start my machinist course for a AA degree this month!! Then on to a 4 year BA in Industrial health/HAZMAT containment.

Watchout Chris B.!

I have a few Intrepids here and Im not afraid to use them as subjects for my own personal CNC design works!!

Actually Chris Bergen, It was when I assembled my 1st Bergen .50 Intrepid years ago, that I wondered/appreciated all the skill it took to produce all those precision heli parts. No other heli brand struck me like yours did.... I knew that I HAD to learn those skills that you and your Dad have mastered.

Now Im in a spot to be able to go back to school full time under the MGIB.

So thanks for for the few phone calls we have had over the years Chris, and thanks for the Focus I needed to get my butt up and back in the classroom.

Appreciate ya!

Garland O.

01-06-2008 06:02 AM

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

I appreciate that, except it's my father that has the skillz, over 40 years of on the job, I'm only gleaning what I can, as fast as I can.

Good luck,

Chris Bergen

01-06-2008 09:17 PM

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