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e-Electric Conversions > E-Vibe -- Now e-Avant with Dualsky Motor
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Hey guys. Just thought I would start a thread on my upcoming Vibe mod. Maybe to keep me motivated to get it done sooner than later.

My planned equipment is:
Hacker A50-12L
Kontronik Power Jazz
18S1P A123
Stock Vibe gearing of 8.0:1
CSM flybarless setup (2 x SL720, Cyclock)
2 x Dimension Engineering VHVBEC

My plan for mounting the motor is to machine the sides off a stock clutch bell and mount it to the fan end of the A50-12L. The pinion will then be supported on the top and bottom by the stock bearing setup. The shaft end of the motor will be attached to the stock engine mount via an adaptor.

All the numbers work out for this power system to have ample 3D power IF I can keep the A50-12L cool. That may require mounting an additional fan to the shaft end to aid the built in fan. That would definitely affect the mount design.

Someone posted a URL to Scott Gray's weight loss mods to his Vibe(s). I'm thinking of doing some of those too. http://www.scottgrayrc.com/helis_2006vibe90.php

I'm going to fly it first with the flybar to collect power system data for comparison with data after going flybarless.

Goals:
- Minimal/no airframe mods
- Keep motor and batteries as high as possible
- Proper pinion support to minimize/eliminate side loading on motor bearings and shaft


So what do you guys think? Comments, suggestions?

Thanks,
John

Protos -- Logo 10
06-07-2007 04:17 PM
 
 
ludocopter
Heliman
Location: Normandy - France

Hello,

Your project is good

Why you have choose the hacker A50-12L. The Actro is more Watt and more light.

I've, a long time, considered the hacker or plettenberg. I've finished by buy a actro 32-3 for my millenium.

So, for the A123, have you a autonomy idea ?
bst rgd

@+ ludo

milli_E700, Henseleit MP-XL-E, swift 620SE, T500
06-08-2007 06:37 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Ludo,
> Why you have choose the hacker A50-12L.

The kV is right and I have one so I thought I would give it a try. I purchased it many months ago after my Actro shaft broke based on Gary Goodrum's statement that it is the best 12S motor he's used. All the numbers work out great for this motor (better than an Actro) if I can keep it cool (it's very strong when cool, but falls off if it gets hot). Of course, sometimes the numbers are wrong. I guess I'll find out.

> The Actro is more Watt and more light.

An Actro 32-X is 430 g and the Hacker is 450 g, so you are right about that. But the Actro is also twice the price and has little to no support in the US (I never could get the shaft in the 32-3 replaced in the US). And, they don't have one near the kV I need. The 32-3 is a power house for sure, but would require significant gearing changes to be useful on a 15S LiPo equivalent setup.

> So, for the A123, have you a autonomy idea ?

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you say it a different way?

Thanks,
John

Protos -- Logo 10
06-08-2007 08:30 PM
 
 
ludocopter
Heliman
Location: Normandy - France

John,

Thanks for your explanation

I believed that the hacker weight 510g (http://www.hackerbrushless.de/image...07-Web12u13.pdf)

For your A123, what is the time of fly that you hoping or calculating !

thanks

@+ ludo

milli_E700, Henseleit MP-XL-E, swift 620SE, T500
06-08-2007 09:31 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
unruly_heli_nut
Senior Heliman
Location: SoCal

Doesn't MA make the 90 sized ION ?

Would be cool to see if you can top that in performance.
06-08-2007 10:47 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Ludo,
> I believed that the hacker weight 510g

Hmm, that seems to be off a bit. I just weighed my A50-12L at 458 g with two M4 mounting bolts.

> what is the time of fly that you hoping or calculating !

I'm hoping for 6 minutes. Based on what someone else is getting with a 10S2P setup on a Predator, I think 6 mins is possible with a flybarless setup.


unruly,
> Doesn't MA make the 90 sized ION ?
> Would be cool to see if you can top that in performance.

Well, misskimo has come up with some pretty crazy power setups for the Ion. I should certainly match or better "normal" Ion-X power/weight. My e-Avant was 300 W/lb, this e-Vibe should easily meet that.

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
06-09-2007 04:11 AM
 
 
richardf
Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA Posts: Billions and Billions

Thanks for the information

John, it sounds like a fun project you are working on.

My pinions came in last night, 10S1p on a 95/18T w/230Kv.

If it works out I will put up my own post soon.

-Richard.
06-12-2007 08:13 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Richard,
Yes, please keep us posted. Did you mean 10S2P?

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
06-12-2007 08:18 PM
 
 
richardf
Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA Posts: Billions and Billions

Batteries

My first E-Avant test will be using Thunder Power Extreme packs, they are two TPE4600 5S packs. I'm expecting to run this large outrunner at lower than typical 3D head speeds to get longer hovering times.

I tested those batteries on my 28% Yak with a Hyperion Z5045-18B swinging a 26x15 prop giving 24 lbs. static thrust at 2200 watts and 62 Amps. Next I will test with the A123 packs I have which are 10S2P 33.6v and 4600 Mah.
06-13-2007 03:20 PM
 
 
invrtd
Veteran
Location: Central Florida

Richardf,

Please let me know what your flight times are with the 10S2P A123 packs. I am looking at this same battery for a 90 sized eheli myself.
06-18-2007 10:15 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
richardf
Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA Posts: Billions and Billions

Not enough voltage

While I still have faith in the A123 cell technology if you can afford the small weight penalty, the voltage was just too low for my 28% Yak.

I could up the A123 cell count, but the charging issue presents a problem.

I have ordered the 12S packs.

-Richard.
06-18-2007 11:08 PM
 
 
Baron
Heliman
Location: Florida

Very interested in your conversion. I'd like to do an electric Vibe soon as well with a primary goal, like you, to keep the airframe as unmodified as possible. I'd be setting it up for F3C, which limits it to 42V, so I'd plan on 10S Li-Poly.

I'll be interested to hear how the Hacker performs, and very interested to see how you mount it to the clutch bell and how that works. I like the idea of using the stock pinion.

Thanks for posting this thread, please keep us posted!
07-01-2007 01:20 AM
 
 
richardf
Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA Posts: Billions and Billions

Some Progress

I have ordered a Steve Neu motor since the outrunner does not have enough power.

This will be a 1912/1Y with a 6.7 : 1 grear box on 10S1P power
in the Hirobo Sceadu EX and 12S1P in the Avant EFX conversion.
I have a source for fairloc pinions for a 6mm output shaft that
matches a 1 module gear. Most electric systems use .5 or .7
and the smaller teeth have problems that I want to avoid and it
makes it easier for me to use stock main gears from the gas setup.

More testing this weekend - I will post my results.

-Richard.
07-01-2007 04:37 AM
 
 
epc2
Senior Heliman
Location: Miami , Fl./S.Dgo.

Richard,

1912/1y and 12s = problems the 1912-1y is an 825 kv and you really don't want to run it above 30k. or you will see some shaft slipping and if is not the new H version it will also run hot.

For that purpose , I think the 1915 is a better option.

epc2.
07-02-2007 03:23 PM
 
 
richardf
Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA Posts: Billions and Billions

Good advice

Thanks for the heads up. I was in Steve's factory on Friday and
we talked about several things.

I know the RPM limit is 30K. I plan on running a certain headspeed to stay just below the threshold.

-RF
07-02-2007 05:31 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Heat concerns with the A50-12L in helicopters may cause me to delay until the Z-Power Z70 motors are available. Power with the A50-12L is said to be phenomenal, but it gets very hot very quickly. It does just fine in planes so it is a cooling issue.

I'll probably keep it a nitro a little while longer and get a Z70 as soon as they come out.

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
08-13-2007 02:23 PM
 
 
richardf
Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA Posts: Billions and Billions

Neu 2215/3Y BAM

I flew the Avant E-conversion last weekend and had a problem similar to yours with a snapped motor shaft. It had been flying very well on 11S and with 12S the power was unreal until a high power loop. The failure was at the top of the loop, had to auto between weeds and got lucky.
I did not have a onboard watt meter but I expect this is near 5 horse power. I am having the shaft replaced with the full 8 mm version available for direct drive systems. The 5mm output is turned down from 8mm before the hardening process. More info soon.

-Richard.
08-21-2007 04:11 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

Given the known heat issues with the A50-12L in helis, I'm now considering using an Actro 24-5 on 15S. Calculations show the same flight times and certainly a lighter heli by about 12 oz.

- John

Protos -- Logo 10
08-31-2007 09:26 PM
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

All right guys, this should shed some light on why it takes me so long to "get anything done." I think too much, buy too much, act too little.

These are the motor, battery, and gearing setups I'm toying with:

1. Hacker A50-12L, 18S, 8.0:1
2. Actro 24-5, 16S, 8.0:1
3. Neu 1915/1.5Y, 14S, 8.0:1
4. Neu 1915/1.5Y, 16S, 9.7:1
5. Z-Power Z70-435(?)
6. Dualsky 6350CA-12T, 18S, 7.33:1

Here's what I see with each...
1. Known heat issue. Additional fan might help. Heaviest setup.
2. Efficiency starts dropping off fast over 200 W/lb. Proven motor that stays cool. Not known to be a power house on 90-size birds, however (and the numbers seem to show that too).
3. Very nice efficiency numbers. Same predicted flight time as setup number 1 while being much lighter! 'H' version not available yet; current version known to get a bit warm.
4. Very nice efficiency numbers. Requires extensive gearing change. 'H' version not available yet; current version known to get a bit warm.
5. Not available yet. No numbers to work off of yet. I list it because current Z-Power motors from Gary have a known track record and if this one lives up to its little brothers, it should be a great motor.
6. Numbers look great but unproven in helis. Heavier 18S setup.

I wouldn't mind going with a 14S setup that should be as efficient as what the Neu look like on the spreadsheet. It drops quite a bit of weight. It would also open up other ESC options that would drop more weight compared to the PJ (although a few extra ounces to have a PJ on-board doesn't bother me too much).

I'm open to any further suggestions. Looking for candidate motors in the 350-450 kV range. Please...

Thanks,
John

Protos -- Logo 10
09-04-2007 03:13 PM
 
 
richardf
Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA Posts: Billions and Billions

Neu motors with fans

Both my 1912/1.5Y and the 2215/3Y are F motors. With a built
in fan, they are cool even after a hard flight.

-Richard.
09-04-2007 03:40 PM
 
 
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e-Electric Conversions > E-Vibe -- Now e-Avant with Dualsky Motor
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