RunRyder - Help with Gas Tuning!!!

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Help with Gas Tuning!!!

jjones
Senior Heliman
Location: Pendleton, Oregon

I have a Bergen gasser with a Hanson modified engine, running a MA 4030 exhaust and a velocity stack. The thing runs great once I get through the rough midsection of the throttle. I can start and idle, and once I get up to speed, it runs great, but it has a hard time moving through the initial wind up of the blades and will often die.

Here is how I have it tuned. I have tried numerous oils and needle adjustments.

AmsOil @ 50:1
Low needle: 1 1/8
High Needle: 1 1/4

Plug is not fouling nor burning and doesn't look bad... could it be gasket problems? Need backpressure of some sort with a filter on the intake? I am getting a K&N filter from vario to use. I use to run with standard 2 cycle oil at around 32:1 and 40:1, and found this amsoil really runs better once I get running. Just would like it to move through the midrange nice and smoothly. Often if I screw in the low needle all the way and back it back out, it will run okay for that tank of gas.

Josh

01-04-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Josh,

Have you looked at the filter in the carb lately?

Thereis a small screen in the carb that tends to clog, depending on where you get your fuel.

Chris Bergen

01-04-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Josh, if your trying to run my setup, you have your needles backwards...Your hovering way to lean, thats the reason your settings only last one flight...Back off on the oil if its 100:1 mix to just 2 ounces..
Instead of leaning to smooth it out thru the mid range, bring the throttle in earlier ...If you hover Half stick, you should be at your hovering speed at 1/4 throttle...If your hovering at 3/4 stick, you should be at your hovering speed at half stick...

Regards,
Bill

01-04-2003 Over year old.

Dr.Tim
Key Veteran
Location: Mojave Desert

Josh

If there is ONE thing that you Should Do with your Heli -- That would Be LISTEN TO MR.BILL

Sorry for raising my Voice but, Bill has been playing with these engines for a long time and knows how to make them purr!! I have his setup on my Huey and AirWolf!! Both run PERFECT!!
Bill, What is the link to your Site? As I remember it had a Great deal of info. Hope to see you in Al in a couple of months -- Got nothing better to do then drive for 3 days to fly with you at a noon time demo!

(And listen to your Stories around a fire!!)

Dr.Tim

From Simple minds come simple ideas! Starwood Models, Approach Engineering

01-04-2003 Over year old.

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jjones
Senior Heliman
Location: Pendleton, Oregon

Good Advice, couple of questions though.

chris, I have not disassembled the carb, and did not know there is a screen inside. Should I take the carb apart? Not sure of the location of the screen. I am assuming behind the big shinny screw on the gas intake sid eof the carb.

bill, I have read all your articles and I am running 50:1 to start out with and was going to work eventually to 80:1 or around there. I use to run 32:1 and had my low needle at 7/8 and now I moved it out to 1 1/8. High use to be 1 1/4 and is still around 1 1/4 or so. I need to move out my low needle to 1 1/4 or so? I know your articles say to do this, but I was tending to get a lot of smoke when backed out that far, started running rich sounding. Perhaps I am wrong.

I do hover at just over half stick with the throttle right at 40%...

What are your opinions on intake air filters? some say use them, others say not to. Hanson makes all their engines with velocity stacks and I always assume they know what is best. I can see using one for dust, but what about power, pressure, etc. does it effect that?

thanks guys, lots of help... by the way chris, these helis are wonderful. I got one and my dad has one now. I am quite certain they can do anything nitros can do now, just a lot more economically.

Josh

01-04-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Josh,
If your running 50:1 amsoil, thats a lot of oil.The viscosity is a lot higher with this oil....Since your running the older walbro carb, it does not atomize the fuel as well, due to lower air flow and ventura design...I have always recommended not to run the a airfilter because of this...This is only if your wanting peak performance...Its ok to run and air filter...you will need to run the needles leaner if you do....
Last nite, you said that you were running 1 1/8 on the low, and 1 1/4 on the high...I assumed you were trying to run my setup, and if so, I suggest to you to put your low,= at 1 1/4 , and the high, at 1 1/8 If you wanted to run more oil than 85:1...Otherwise, these settings should do it for you unless you lower the oil...Then you will need to richen the lowend about 1/32...At this point I would ask myself, is the engine running good, no vibs....If it is ok, then I would keep a check on the plug after several flights, if its running dark, or black, with running all that oil, I would cut the oil...
To me, its hard to run more oil than 85:1 running amsoil...Just like I have said before, running more oil requires a leaner needle setting....All I do is get the engine running smooth with the needles, and from that point on to get the color of the plug, I add or subtract 1/4 ounce of oil, with 1.5 ounces being the absolute minimum(85:1)
Like no body else, I have given a window of operation for those who want to try this....Giving you absolute minimum needle settings such as 1 turn on the high, and 1 1/4 on the low while running these mixtures, and still be safe....
Sound of the engine........This setup does sound different, it is very low tone compared to the old way (7/8's on the low, and 1 1/2 on the high).
Where some folks had problems was, they would use my needle setting, and be running 50:1 with amsoil, and not leaning enough using this amount of oil....
The ones who know about gasser operation knew what to do, but those who didn't, I had to put these minimums up, so they could do the adjustment with confidence, and at the same time hopefully they would notice what they had done, and learn from it...
What I have found with folks that still had problems running smooth with these setting was very poor mechanical setup on throttle, and pitch...
Regards,
Bill

01-05-2003 Over year old.

jjones
Senior Heliman
Location: Pendleton, Oregon

Bill... I ran three tanks today at 50:1 and 1 1/8 on the low and 1 1/8 on the high. I think your right, I need to definantly move to the 80:1 mixture and adjust the needles to your specs. It's interesting playing with leaning mixtures through oil and leaning mixtures through needle settings... Essentially doing the same, just different ways. 50:1 amsoil runs very rich at 1 1/4... It's amazing how 1/8th of a turn makes a big difference with these things. Next time, less oil, open the needle a bit...

Chris... I also took of the end of my carb and cleaned that screen inside. I never took one apart before and didn't realized they had those. Dirt everywhere. cleaned it, ran three tanks through it, midrange sounds great now, no stalling.

I appreciate the help here. good advice...

Josh Jones

01-05-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Chris Bergen
Key Veteran
Location: location

Wonderful!!!

Glad you got her working.

Chris Bergen

01-05-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

I know you delight in this Stephen, but if you notice...I was refering to It as if he was trying my setup....I said this AFTER Chris said his answer, which was a good one....
I see you are still licking your wounds from the Delta thread...Now you want to come over here and start some crap......
If you would direct your jealousy to more positive issues like understanding how a carb really works, or how Delta works on a model, you would not have to do crap like this...
Go ahead fellow

Bill.

01-06-2003 Over year old.

jjones
Senior Heliman
Location: Pendleton, Oregon

This was all really helpful information, I flew three more tanks again today and everything is running wonderfully... And yes bill, I am running your setup, or at least I am getting there. I am starting out rich, and slowly work my way until I feel comfortable with the performance, heat, etc. for my location of flying.

I am not sure what this other guyz post is suppose to mean. My original post really covered a gammet of questions...

And by the way, you don't have to fuel through the carb intake line... Bergens use three lines, I fuel through the return line, filter on my fueler line, it vents through the vent line. This way I never touch my intake line, filter, vent line, or clunk. Fuel only goes in the clunk line when engine running.

01-06-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Hey Stephen....I got to tune a G-24 today...awesome engine

You da man

Bill

01-08-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

It come from Blois....I hope I'm not getting in trouble! The gasser police my get me

It is one awesome engine....very smooth, and loves high rpm, thank God! At 1900, you start to get a little fin buz, hehehe
Regards,
Bill

01-09-2003 Over year old.

ddavison
Veteran
Location: Brownsville, Pennsylvania

Bill, do you have Bloise's web address, The one I have is the old one and I can not find the new one. Dave

DaveDavison, Miniature Aircraft Field Rep. Spectra,Stratus,Furion, JR 12x 2,4

01-09-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Dave I sure don't have it...Lets try to find it, and post it here.....I was doing this for a private Co., and didn't ask to many questions

.....

Regards,
Bill

01-09-2003 Over year old.

ddavison
Veteran
Location: Brownsville, Pennsylvania

I have two engines with his heads on them and other than having to make/modify the rear mount, I am really happy with the heads. So if anyone has the Bloise web address, please post it. Dave

DaveDavison, Miniature Aircraft Field Rep. Spectra,Stratus,Furion, JR 12x 2,4

01-09-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Dave, I did notice this engine uses the small plug, so that deal with the rear mount is not a problem anymore..It was easy to take the plug out
Bill

01-09-2003 Over year old.

Billme
Key Veteran
Location: MS

Update,
The engine was not a G-24, it was a GP231...I was told it is factory modified with Blois specks.. Thats all I know...Very nice engine...All these boat folks with these new numbers are getting me dizzy..
Hey, I just tuned the dang thing, and tune it, I did

they were very surprised and happy, and thats all I really care about

Its power was about the same as the RC230...
Regards,
Bill Meador

01-10-2003 Over year old.

Carey Shurley
Senior Heliman
Location: Orlando, FL

The G231 has the same cylinder design as the G26. There won't be a need to use the conversion cylinders for cooling purposes, as the stock cylinder will be adequate to keep the engine cool.

Its a single ring piston, and uses a different carb as Bill has pointed out. Its much smoother than the G26 especially over 10K rpms.

01-11-2003 Over year old.

[NRI] LarryK
Heliman
Location: Huntsville, AL

i think the engine bill is referring to is one that our company has -- Neural Robotics. it's a G-231, completely stock, except for modified cooling fins which were added by blois. it's a powerhouse and both bill and i enjoyed it very much.

what it boils down to is that our company will be lifting weight with the X-Cell Gas airframe and i had a goal of taking one of our machines to bill and getting it to lift and fly with a 15 lb. payload. because of bill's in-depth knowledge of all the links in the chain (mechanical, engine, carb, blades, etc.), this proved to be rather easy. we ended up carrying approx. 18.3 lbs. and there seemed to be little doubt that i could've added another 5 lbs.. i didn't push it any further because i reached my goal and was much more worried about the integrity of the airframe than the engine at that point.

at one point bill asked how i had the klunk in the fuel tank set up. i think the words "oh god -- no!" went through my head (he's a 3D pilot). i think he was just trying to scare me

set-up:

X-Cell Pro Gas
G-231 -- Blois cooling (no porting) (still not fully broken in)
Miniature tuned exhaust
AmsOil 100:1 @ approx. 80:1
700x70 mm SAB flat-bottom blades
18.3 lb. payload (approx. 30 lb. gross)

01-11-2003 Over year old.

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