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Autography FlightPower . Advantage Hobby . Revolution Models

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e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > Cheap Eco-8 Setup, 90deg Swash
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

jrv. Would the other way work? 120 swash with 90degree Tx.
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

FMA co-pilot

Just hit me...

It's pretty gusty here at times, and I wanted the option to use my 2 FMA co-pilots (CPD4). They stabilize aileron and elevator ONLY. So only good for Shogun or mech mixer type helis.

Unless someone knows of a 4CH to eCCPM (120) device (prefer not too pricey), I believe I'm forced to use the in the box mechanical mixer as I know that'll work with my 60 servo/updates per second stabilizer.

Exactly how bad can that piece of black plastic be, especially under computer control??

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

If you can fly those other heli's you have, Why do you even need the Co-pilot?
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Co-pilot is for my Dad... and for me, I turn it turn quite a bit, & keep it just as a little insurance on larger more expensive helis, especially when it's a bit gusty out, which I usually compensate quite well (CP2 in 15-20mph before), but just a little insurance.

But it's a must for my father, & he'd like the helis to be the same. Can the mech mixer work for hover/ff flight?? I'd think computer assisted, it would be fine for my Dad. But assist turned down, I supposed I'd notice much unwanted slop right? and it's a major deal switching back to eCCPM (like starting over) right?

What if I do his heli with mech mixer & mine without (120 swash). I'd lose my "insurance policy" on windy days but I have a feeling you'll say it's worth it over the mech mixer with my fast reflexes...

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
jrvander
Veteran
Location: Mystic, CT

Don't know anything about the FMA

so I can't comment, search on the forums for some info or RR members who have used it. I doubt it's compatable with the 4 channel Eco mechanical mixer however.
I think using 90 degree mixing on a 120 swash would bind at the shaft, but I'm not certain.

- Jon

Jerry wins!
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Rob_T
Elite Veteran
Location: Tualatin, OR - USA

I thought copilot was supposed to handle all types of eCCPM, or is that only a newer version? The setup "learns" the control inputs needed to produce different responses so it should handle the Eco's 90 degree mixing. (In theory, I haven't actually tried it.)


Rob
Eco8, Piccolo Fun, Shogun, HB Elite CP, Trex 450XL CDE, Swift
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Co-pilot has pitch and roll horizon sensors (works really good). The newer FS8 model just has a 8ch DSP receiver (with a data logger module) instead of just a small base unit (whole thing is 1oz). Both models can do CCPM, just not eCCPM. (I might be wrong on the FS8, but I haven't seen "eCCPM" anywhere).

It takes aileron and elevator CH from RX, then generates new (stabilized) aileron and elevator outputs for those 2 servos @ 60Hz (works great on Shogun, mech mixing head), the pitch is controlled by the throttle (CH3), & pilot obviously.

An outside "120 CCPM mixer" could be used to regenerate the "stabilized" servo controls to a 120 swash, but so far I've failed to find a cheap/decent one.

So it'll work with any 4CH controlled heli (mech mixing), but everyone says it's total rubish on Eco8 and leads to crashes/$$$. My pilot skills are good. No "real 3D", not my style anyway, but if I build these Eco's with mech mixing (I might want aerial platform later perhaps, i.e. co-pilot) will I be able to at least hover around and some FF, figure 8's without crashing?? I mean Ikarus was a flight school before right?

I know CCPM is the way for precise control, but I don't wish to fly the Eco in a spirited manor, purely relax/duration/scale type. Anyone built it with the mixer that might know? Thanks.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

eco8 brushed

I am new to all this but eco8 manual says 1300rpm hovers great. I am gonna build my first heli eco8. With the team orion 27t core stock dyno, 13t pinion, 4ch using mech. mixer and 8cell 3600mah nimh dont know duration but this calculates to 1700rpm and 27t keeps power consumption down I hope for my 30amp esc. has anybody tried an eco this cheap effectively? I mean isnt their a somewhat cheaper setup for heli trainer? I realize their are better choices but its easier to learn how to ride a 20" bicycle before you get on the 26" 18 speed mountain bike. And I also flew planes as a kid that would just fly out of sight but I always had more fun pushing the sticks to the corners on a trainer plane.


Feel free to disagree so as I can be proven wrong and learn something.
Thanks
12-14-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

tyran02 - IMO, large helis are stable, but if you tip it, crash, misadjust it, you've got time/money issues. I feel a fixed pitch Honey Bee (Piccolo I believe too) with strong head/blades is good to practice on; cheap because crashing is rarely painful for the heli or wallet. Most can update to collective pitch too. Goodle "RADD" learning method. I'd not expect brushed motor to last too long in a heli. If you have spare brushes & maybe access to a comm lathe it can delay your entry into brushless (which is really affordable now).

It's possible to learn on Eco, I'd say it's not the most affordable or easy; some have done it, most have better success on the smaller birds. I mean a ~42" rotor is intimidating and dangerous; tipovers can be more than just costly. Use good training skids.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-14-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Finalized my Cheapo Eco Setup

I'll build using the "infamous" mechanical mixer on my Eco-8's. It's needed to allow my FMA CPD4 co-pilot stabilizer to work its magic (really does hang in the air, currently on my Shogun). I hope it's good enough for hovering around & FF (dream-models.com agrees too, under 3D setups), especially with the co-pilot updating the aileron & elevator servos 60 times a sec (built a 2A 6V redundant BEC).

I got the autorotate gear <$40 (future BL) & even the red metal frame plate with BB/hardware and double tailrotor bearings. DSP RX, HH gyro, 4 good servos, 6mm carbon tube 100cm x 2 for setup skids. Got metal frame plate hoping main gear stays good instead of trashing from flex (the CF frames didn't interest me, alum sides may have done the trick?). Maybe some motor heat sinks in; likely lost some duration due to weight.

Thought about the 35T tailgear for more duration, it seems metal whereas 40T stocker seems plastic; but with my windy conditions and possible low headspeed (duration), maybe the 45T or just leave the 40T? Don't like plastic tailgears much...

Still searching for the best duration BL motor/pinion on 7-10cell for hover/FF.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-14-2006 Over year old.
 
 
tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

Pilotmechanical mixer

400HeliPilot

Im fighting the mixer now I had to make aluminum spacers as the servo heads were inset to far on my servos you might want to put them up there and see if the linkage will hit the rotorshaft provided spacers werent enough for meneeded almost 1/2". I have the radd school of flight on USB flashdrive im flying a 2ch dragonfly in my livingroom as a simulator are Honey Bee Piccolo good indoor 16' x 23' 10' ceiling models as It is too cold now to fly outdoors. Oh yeah the team orion is a totally rebuildable motor and Im sure I will upgrade to brushless. And cant wait to see if mech. mixer has good response
12-14-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

tyan02

Use the dragonfly 2ch for indoors. Do you use a PC sim? if not the big ones, Clearview is pretty good IMO, to get feel for collective pitch.

I never used RADD (or knew when I started) but I hear it's good and my Dad is using it now. I rarely crashed even starting on a brushed Blade CP. I have a couple Orions myself (before Stampede went BL), wish they were 20T or higher tho. Your ESC should be okay, it might get warm, let airflow get to it. Some guys "pre-spin" the mains (carefully) & slowly start throttle.

Spin up slow, & without the autorotate gear added, spin down slow so you don't mangle your main gears. With $14 main gears, I consider cheapest Eco to be ~$130 + ~$40 (autogear), more efficient too.

I start tomorrow on my mech mixer (seems we're alone on this mixer)... you're a bit ahead of me. I'm thinking it's mostly for hover/FF. I've got a control advantage tho with the onboard computer. I doubt I'd notice any slop (servos work hard tho). Even in crazy winds the heli only "translates" as I control the throttle/pitch/altitude (like a co-axial if you set it high, it won't leave stable hover unless I command it like FF, then it returns again).

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-14-2006 Over year old.
 
 
tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

sims are not for people with add

yes I am using fms with a gamepad that has two analog sticks. I'm flying in circles doing figure 8's landing on the same spot nose in out sideways and yes some inverted I am not sure what 3D is but I'd bet Ive done it. I just dont have the (real feel) you know something I built $500 plus dangling in front of me. thanks for the advice on spin up & down. As far as hover and ff for the mechanical mixer sounds like a great place for me to learn anyway and I am using a towerhobbies 4ch with their microseros. I plan on spending the extra dough on a gy240 with heading hold to possibly compensate for the tail with the mech mixing what do you think? And Im not gonna finish mine for another month or 2 so if you get it going let us all know what you think. and everybody says stay away from the blade cp go cx is a coaxial counter rotating heli really worth wasting your time wont it pretty much hover itself (HAHAHA)?

let me know what you think as I was lookingat the rotofly fixed pitch to move onto but could be convinced a cp would be a better trainer to move into my eco
12-14-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Yeah I can do anything inside all of my sims (4CH Esky to mic input on my core duo notebook), cost nothing to make the cable, but the real thing is always more intense. I can attach my Optic 6 but control is same, Expo is in the sim.

The 4CH TX is from one of my Dad's coax (like CX) but it's Esky's... I actually "built" them with seperate ESC for each motor, and PG03 rate gyros (they used these on Eco8 back in the day). These two "built" coax helis can land on a dime. Fun toy indoors.

Your tower servos might struggle on Eco. Then again 10yrs ago when Eco came out servos didn't have the torque they have now. For basic flight you probably don't need a "3 digit" gyro, it holds the tail, the mech mixer is pure cyclic control. I use $60 Telebee just fine (fast flying too). "Colco 401" for $50 even works I hear. I have a $38 Esky HH I still need to test. I maintain a fleet of 10 helis, none have a Futaba & all fly superb. Guess I don't know what I'm missing eh?? then again I couldn't fly 10 helis if I got Futaba stuff...

A Bee CP2 airframe with motors is $69 (3 servos/esc/gyro/rx/batts needed). Durable collective pitch heli (nice with HH gyro, BL main ($20-30), & $55 belt tail upgrade). I like my Esky Belt-CP too, $102 airframe shipped, you need 4 servos/BLmotor/esc/gyro/rx, flys like Trex & needs 2000mah Lipo (12min flights on both). I guess I need to wait till Monday to put these heli pics in my gallery on here??

I'll have my Eco-8 built within a few days with the mech mixer, I'll post pics and report back on it's accuracy before I toss the computer assist on it. It's a blast in Aerofly Pro Dlx Sim, but as I subtract # of NiMH cells, it gets weak on stock brushed. Can hover & slofly on 8 with 21T stocker, but 10 is real flying, & motor brush cooking.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-15-2006 Over year old.
 
 
tryan02
rrProfessor
Location: Canton, Missouri

subject dying

well Ive got my mechanical mixer in burning in my brushed motor with just the flybar on and a 6 cell 1500 nicad. I have worked 80 hours this week. could someone tell me what radio I could get for the eco8 eccpm for 90 degree swash for a couple bills with reciever that fits towerhobbies I believe futaba servos. Oh yeah just got to mount the servo that holds the tail when you spin up the blades. newbie cant remember what its called. and buy gyro.
12-21-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Topic not dead, just busy building 2 Ecos

My Eco8 is built, with upgrades... The mech mixer is rough, but works & is required for my flight stabilizer system (seperate aileron/elevator servos), I'll try to improve it. The plastic side rails are weak too, maybe double them up or go alum.

I got new Mega 22/20/3H BL motors, decent piece (& price), & smooth 65-70A ESCs (bit overkill, but no air in the canopy, without holes). Looking for a 5mm shaft collar/fan for back of Mega BL (without having to build one, but will if I have too).

I'm trying a metal 35T tail gear (for duration & metal). Metal motor plate is nice. Autorotate is great. Head is very smooth; collective pitch correction arms too close; used washers/bent to have them miss each other. Voyager-E pulleys probably better than the black tail pulleys that aren't even drilled straight (but wobble isn't too much).

www.dream-models.com/eco lists a couple a cheaper/older 6CH radios that can program to work 90deg swash, otherwise just check your favorite, but Optic says 90deg, but it is not, they mean mech mixer like a Shogun, it only does 120 eCCPM. Many Futabas do 90/120/180 eCCPM.

Hope you put blue locktite on head bolt & tail grip bolts (better to double bearing the tail grips & put longer/strong bolt each grip), english translation leaves this out, big safety issue.

The tailservo? I'm boom mounting mine with double-tape/tie-wraps. If I need a mount I'll make or buy. I made the tailsystem real smooth.

I love the Eco, light airframe (bit weak), heavy batts (but cheap, bulletproof, & rapid charging). My blades are pre-shrinked & nice. Glad I didn't get the heavier (tho newer) Logo, for my flight style. 8cell 3800/4500mah's are great, just built some.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-21-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Rob_T
Elite Veteran
Location: Tualatin, OR - USA

As I mentioned previously, you dont need to use the mechanical mixer, at least with the current version of copilot.

From FMA's web site:

Quote 
Provides advanced flight stabilization for any conceivable R/C aircraft configuration including CCPM helicopters, split ailerons, etc. Uses up to all 8 channels for flight stabilization. Learns your transmitter mixes and reproduces them during flight stabilization

The last sentence is the important point. It learns how the channels change to produce different flight attitude changes, and then reproduces that in flight.


Rob
Eco8, Piccolo Fun, Shogun, HB Elite CP, Trex 450XL CDE, Swift
12-21-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Rob, yes you're correct, The current version FS8 would learn regardless the swashplate degrees. With the DSP RX, a good deal. The pitch/roll sensor thing (FS4) I have is compatible, but unfortunately they only sell that piece separately, so I'd have to pay ~$150 (FS8, unavail right now anyway) + 120 alum Eco swash (or make). Or use the 120deg alum swash with a 120 eCCPM onboard "up-mix" from 4CH (the CPD4 stabilized servo data), but these are $100-180 so that's silly unless I found it cheaper & especially if it could use the stock 90deg eCCPM swash.

I've got my mech mixer working very smoothly now, so my current CPD4 co-pilot has no issues. I'll try to post pics, I was surprised how "massaging" the plastic bits and graphite lube made a slick mechanism without a single ball bearing (tho I have plans to add small ones where Ikarus uses plastic bushings). My bluebird 380 servos, 41oz,(can go metal gear & 50oz) use the 5mm frame spacers & I reverse mount the brass ball on the horn, everything barely fits with mech mixer but works really good. Belt friction is great, hardly detectable, nice "antique" heli.

I'm waiting on the alum frame brace (my servos still clear, just barely), to add to the metal bottom plate, & my ESCs. Forgot the clear canopy window tho, guess it's blue for awhile (used hot glue, so I can swap).

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-22-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Rob_T
Elite Veteran
Location: Tualatin, OR - USA

OK. I was just trying to save you the pain of getting the mixer to work well. I've read where a number of people have had difficulty getting the slop out of the mixer, but it sound's like you've got that working smoothly now.


Rob
Eco8, Piccolo Fun, Shogun, HB Elite CP, Trex 450XL CDE, Swift
12-22-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Continued on other thread

As I've finished Eco-8 #1, I posted the pics in another thread to continue here, I figure it's easier to see things than speak of them.

http://runryder.com/helicopter/t308958p1/

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-26-2006 Over year old.
 
 
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e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > Cheap Eco-8 Setup, 90deg Swash
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