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Thunder Power RC . Mikado Modellhubschrauber . GrandRC

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e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > Cheap Eco-8 Setup, 90deg Swash
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Even tho $220 Logo 10, has all kinda bearings/CF frame, cheaper blades... I picked up two new Eco-8 kits @ $130 each shipped, I felt it was a decent deal even tho the stock kit is pretty sparse.

I really just want to build the kit & spool, maybe hover once, then upgrade to autorotate, etc, later.

Trouble is I have the Optic 6 TX with 90NOR and 120 CCPM mixing. I didn't want to use the mech mixer, even tho I'm mostly hovering/ff this bird. Unsure the min torque needed on the servos, but don't want HS81/85's for my app.

I've heard that the Optic 6 120deg ccpm mixing works on the 90deg swash Eco-8; all servos in concert. I find this tough to chew on. Anyone?? I feel everyone will say the alum swash is needed...

I know the Eclipse 7 with 180deg swash + 1 mixer can run the 90deg plastic swash. But alas, I have 90NOR (Shogun, etc) and 120 ccpm & 2 onboard mixers on the Optic 6. I know small devices exist to make a 4CH TX into 120deg, but correct me if I'm wrong but 90deg swash is like 7 years old?? I'd like to hover without the alum swash for now or major binding of the cyclics; if at all possible.

I planned on using $14 Bluebird servos (380s) with 41oz-in torque & .11/60deg transit for cyclics (mylon/metal gear sets are avail). Works just fine in my planes... enough torque right? near HS8x torque...

I have perfect motor/pinion/ESC setups (brushed, just a quick hover is all I want) before I buy BL motors... my Feigao 380L BL(540 bolt) is 4999k/v (no good I think)... I do have good 3800NiMH's, my main draw to this heli over my Lipo birds.

I know the autorotate (comes on Logo 10) is needed to save the main, but I just want to spool up (without re-drilling/mounting servos) without the alum swash at this point (yes I've been to Dream-models.com, good info, custom plasic 120's). But can I use my 120ccpm Optic 6 and 2 mixers (seems there must be a way here electrically) to pull off the 90deg plastic stocker??

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-12-2006 Over year old.
 
 
jrvander
Veteran
Location: Mystic, CT

Here's a few tips for the Eco8

Let me try to address some of your questions in order:

I read the manual on the Optic 6; you're right, it appears that you can only program two swash types, 120 ccpm and single servo SW1. Pretty limited, unless you have a Raptor or a 120 swash. I'd seriously consider finding a 120 degree swash if you plan to use this radio. If cost is an issue, the ccpm ring mod in dream-models works really well, I've make several of them and they fly great for pennies. Let me know if you're interested in one, I have a few in the drawer.

90 degree 3 servo swash mixing isn't out of date; look at the new electric raptors, the E-550 and E-620. It's not new technology but it still works very well. I've flown my Eco on this swash type quite a bit and never had an problems. The manual has a section on how to install the servos for this type of mixing.

I can't think of any mixer to convert 120 cpm to 90 ccpm, either mechaincal, electronic or a combo of both. Avoid the 4 channel mechanical collective mixer, it's a pain in the a$$ and doens't work very well.

I don't know anything about bluebird servos, but I suspect they aren't as good as the HS-81, which you can find for $16 each. it's a good strong servo that centers well and for the price it's hard to beat. Torque isn't everything in helicopter servos, but centering is. If the servo is sloppy and won't find center, the heli will hover like crap.

If you're going to get one upgrade, the autorotation hub should be the one. It will save you many dollars in stripped main gears.

Good luck with your new birds, let us know how it works out.

- Jon

Jerry wins!
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Thank you for the information.

Yes I do not see how even with two mixers I can make the 90deg swash work with only SW1/120deg modes (pg12 of Optic 6 manual calls it 90deg swash, but it can't be it).

I'll have to pop for the alum swash or make one. I don't see the problem altering two servo balls 30degs away from center (I think that's the trick). I can't quite see what "plastic ring" everyone is using... documentation on this mod is not around, just the pics. I wish I knew what people were using, it doesn't look difficult.

I can get the autorotate for <$40 so that's a done deal. Cheapest I saw the HS81's were $47 for 3 on Tower, is that the best deal? I agree about the centering thing over torque totally, it's just that I need 8 servos, 2 gyros, etc... Don't want to waste money, or worse crash a relic like the Eco

HS85's seem the same torque? is it just the metal gears? and can I swap the nylons out later, or am I missing something else here. I know the 81's are typically boom mounted, and 85's are typical cyclic.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
jrvander
Veteran
Location: Mystic, CT

ccpm mods

The ccpm mod ring is 2" outside dia., 1.850" inner dia. I use .080" thick aluminum tubing and slice the rings off about .250" wide. I then cut the plastic balls off of the stock swash and carefully drill a 1.5mm hold where the ball used to be. The ring slips over the lower swash part and I secure it with M2 hex head cap screws through a new brass ball. This gives me the same dimensions as an aluminum swash with 120 degree spacing. It was a little trial and error at first but now it's a very easy and cheap mod, and it looks good too, much better than glued PVC pipe.

The HS-81 is less expensive than the HS-85. 47/3 is about $16 per servo and with $4 shipping, that's not a bad deal. The 85 has more torque but at this stage of the game, the 81 will work just fine. Metal gears wear out faster but it takes quite a while to do that. Also, the 81 is a little faster than the 85, so it makes a decent analog tail servo. Nothing cmpared to a digital, but for $17 you can't ask too much.

Speaking of the tail, another very performance and cost effective upgrade is the boom mounted tail servo kit. It's about $8 at most places and will greatly increase your tail control over the stock snake.
- Jon

Jerry wins!
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Great 120deg ring info Jon, just what I was looking for. Still going thru tons of PMs this thread gave me (must get new electrics regardless warranty, other Eco goes to Dad & must be new plus match mine, & both will run FMA co-pilots); maybe everyone is flying Logos/Swifts?? I know Eco is like 10 years old, it's okay with me.

I have a new 1050k/v 5mm shaft outrunner (300w), I just have to reverse the output shaft but it'll mount up & it really screams on just 7/8cell (I propped it & spun it). May use it later, or get something better. Probably use my new 16-17 turn truck cans first, I believe I need to time them & get them running good in reverse.

Yes I'm definately boom mounting the tail, one look at the manual & that was decided instantly.

The manual shows the servo locations for mech mixer and 90deg ccpm. I know 120deg mounts exist/can be made (from alum sheet, don't quite have the recipe, doesn't look hard). Some pics I've seen (of homemade 120 rings) seem to show the servos in 90deg ccpm location?? Have I got this incorrect or is possible/common practice to slant the side servo arms a bit for the 120 reach (treating the 120 ring as the only change from 90ccpm)? Seems servos would bind a bit to me, at least in hard flight.

Any luck the cheaper Logo 10 blades (tad longer, but shorter than Eco16) fit the grips?? Probably would be too good to be true. Plus aren't Logo blades more for duration, my research shows the Logo's not staying up so long, awfully weighty 3D birds.

I'll definately post pics of the build/maiden. Have around a week to do it, but it will be done professional.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

You know, I would be tempted to set-up the transmitter at 120 ccpm and set your heli with the stock 90 degree ccpm set-up. Just do a lot of bench testing to make sure it works. You would know right away if it didn't. I fly my Eco with the 90 degree swash and it flys fine. I even have the 120 swash and servo mounts sitting here. To change from 90 to 120 on my Tx requires a re-set and I don't feel like messing with it yet.
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Greybird, I see your point; just 30deg off on the side servos, seems one could almost pull that off with mech links & electric swash settings (that the Optic does have, - and +, plus it's two mixers, master/slave type). I could probably pull off the hovering I desire at the moment without the servos killing each other (I plan on more gearsets anyway).

If the bench testing fails terribly, I'll probably construct the homemade 120 ring, doesn't seem to involved. Even the dang audio timer alert on the Optic 6 is too quiet to hear outdoors cheapo TX (I got new for low price with Synth, but I always use same CH anyhow).

Great info guys, thank you much. This heli reminds me of an old sewing machine (we had a classic Singer), old thing needs a bit of attention. But I love the safety/duration/quick charge, & price, of my NiMH batts; tons of cycles, no worries.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

My Eco on 3S 6000 pack flys for 20 minutes. The swift I am building will fly for maybe 7 minutes. My trex flys for 10 minutes. There is something to be said for long flight times.
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Found the alum swash/balls new for $69. IMO, not worth that money for my needs, I'll get CCPM on the cheap.

I saw the 2 120deg servo mounts for $22. Seems it's not needed to work, but when used will help straighten the working of the swash. But seems a couple of right angle alum sheet pieces and drilling and I'd be done making those.

Sorry for all the Q's guys, but I'm slightly concerned with the bearing issue I hear sometimes about. By not adding thrust bearings to the tail/main grips, how much risk/danger am I in?? I don't plan massive headspeed, but I'd like not something to hit me either. Are these pricey or hard to get bits?

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

Where did you find the swash for that price? If other parts are cheap, I might need a few new pieces...
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Greybird, yeah I get 12 mins on 2000mah Belt CP (Trex 450 type weight & blades) & then its batt swapping time... I can get 12 mins on my HDX300's that really tear the sky up. My highly modded Shogun wins tho, nearly 20mins on 2000mah, it's power to weight & efficiency is good. I'll be happy with 15-20mins on the Eco.

But you're using 6000mah. I'm going to run 7-8cell (likely 8, at 69g per cell) 4600mah NiMH, curious how much your batt weighs??

What about that Ikarus part # you connect to a car batt for training. Anyone used that?? Seems with my luck wires would wrap the main in 2 seconds and she'd plop like a lead balloon

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

I can't see teathering the heli as being a good idea. My 6000 pack weighs 380gms.
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
jrvander
Veteran
Location: Mystic, CT

120 vs 90 ccpm

Let me clarify a bit more. Both types of ccpm work fine, both will provide great stability and cyclic control. However, setting your Tx to 120 and placing your ball links at 90 is a bad idea.

90 degree servo arangement is similar to 120, but the swash will not respond properly if you have a mis-matched set up. For instance with a 120 degree swash, pure down elevator will lift the rear of the swash and slightly tip the forward edge. The computer is calculating a center of rotation that invloves all three servos. With the 90 degree swash the center of rotation in our hypothetical down elevator command is at the middle of the main shaft, so the rear of the swash tips up and the pitch/alieron servos remain steady.


Important part:

So what does all this mean? If you're using 120 swash mixing in the Tx with a 90 degree servo arrangement, when you give down elevator the computer will think the center of rotation is forward of the main shaft, and the front edge will drop your collective several degrees of pitch. At a hover, when you give a forward command to fly, the heli will plunge to the ground and you'll make lots of little parts out of big parts.

Conversely, when you're hovering and you give a back elevator command, the collective will increase and it may fly up into your face. Aileron cyclic control will respond the same way with a mis-matched mixing setup but not as badly.

Overall, I think this is a very bad idea, using 120 mixing on a 90 swash. A 2" piece of right angle aluminum from Lowe's or Home Depot fixed to the frame sides just like the store bought 120 servo brackets will work fine for creating an effective 120 servo arrangement. The servos don't have to be set and an angle, then can be flat against the frame side as long as the linkage is fairly straight up and down to the swash. I have a dozen of these, send me your address and I'll drop a set in the mail for you free. I'd rather spend 90 cents than hear about a guy who ended up in the ER with multiple lacerations to his head, neck and hands from rotor blades ...


A motor with a kv of 1050 will not work unless you're using at least 15v packs and a 24t pinion, and it will bog horribly. With 8 cell NiMH packs, your head speed would be around 1200 rpm. The Eco needs about 250-300 watts just to hover; I would reconsider this motor choice.

Logo blades are 500mm long, they will not work on the stock Eco8. As far as high performance electric helis go, the logo is one of the best on the market, IMO. I can fly hard for 7-8 miuntes or conservatively for 15. Other people like the T-rex 600, or the Swift, but all of them are heavier than the Eco8 and use a much higer voltage power system, which makes them fly the way they do. The Eco is extremely light so it can fly on 11-12 volts, which is it's selling point - cheap packs.

- Jon

Jerry wins!
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

If you keep the headspeed low, Thrust bearings are not needed. Mine has mnay flights without. I would do the 2 bearing tail mod though. Just order 2 extra tail bearings and get some hardened 2mmx20mm long bolts. The bolts will need to be ground to about 18mm. I am surprised you are going with brushed motors seeing your experience. If you need to buy ESC's I would just buy brushless and go with Mega 22-20-3h for motors.
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
jrvander
Veteran
Location: Mystic, CT

thrust bearings

are not needed until you get a head speed above 1700 or so. Sme people will debate this, but I doubt if anyone has any solid data that shows an Eco will pull through a bearing and sling a blade at X rpm. For what you want out of the Eco, I would use the stock bearings and plunge the $40 into a decent 10 cell battery pack.

Tower hobbies has 470mm Heli-max CF baldes for the Eco for about $32 a set. Nice blades, I fly them and like them. Woodies are ok for hovering but they take alot of TLC to balance and shrink wrap.

- Jon

Jerry wins!
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

jrvander. I did say to bench test. I am sure you are right, but I might test it on my Swift that is sitting here. In my head, I just can't see it making much difference.
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Yeah the teathering seems like disaster recipe...

380grams and 20mins? I suppose their is a point of diminishing returns with regard to flight time, no matter the batt capacity. Is this spirited flight?

Doesn't the Eco have something like a unofficial duration record?

I fly mostly scale on my larger helis (the micros I let buzz around a bit, less inertia).

I have plenty of experience with 540-type truck motors (like, they eat comms/brushes for breakfast). If the stock Ikarus is 21 turn, that's not a lot of power, even a 600 motor is only 150watts (but lots of torque).

I take it you have a BL motor on yours. That's my next trick, the cheapest BL, but it's gotta be low IO/efficient, etc, for what I'd like, duration, and not too many hover amps off my NiMH's (would prefer to not have to carry 10cell, I don't think I need to for hover/ff type flight). I do get gusty winds here tho, so I'll need some reserve power or else it's crashtime.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Greybird
Veteran
Location: Davie, Florida

jr. It just hit me as I look at the 90 degree swash. The down elevator would pull the 2 side servo's down acting like decreasing the pitch? Part of the reason I like these, is they make me think.
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
400HeliPilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Boca Raton, Fl - USA

Thanks for the info on the thrust bearings (I'll double the tail) and the heads up on Helimax carbons, sounds good.

I just had the 1050k/v and the Feiago 380C-L (540bolt with internal sink) laying around (with plenty of 60-120A BL controllers I will eventually use, decent ones, no TowerPro electronics on a heli this big, some would say any size, tho I've seen my share of CC ESCs burn out & fall from the sky, good warranty tho).

I don't think either these motors are ideal (The 380C-L is a beast tho, 50+ MPH on my Stampede with Maxx wheels).

I'm definately building 120 servo mounts, it's just too easy not to keep the geometry more correct (thanks for the Home Depot info).

I'm an EE, I build many of my own circuits, lots of pricey test gear, etc. But if it takes 250-300watt just to hover, than how come a Mag mayhem (22T 550 can I believe) can fly for ~20mins, seems it would surely burn up at that power level...I'm a tad confused, is 250-300w from whattmeter data or timed flight??

I've heard people report Eco hovering amps at ~15A (I didn't catch their cell count). At 10 cell/12v, that's 180w, the range I'd expect for 550-600 can motor (hot tho, low life), but it's not 300. If 275w was needed to hover how could Eco's duration come from 2000-3800mah cells (and these are inefficient brushed setups). I'm surely missing something, but reviews I read said ~12mins on 2400mah cells, Ikarus brushed; unless I got something mixed up.

I'd never stay brushed, it's only very temporary till I find a BL/pinion optimal for my cell count and scale flight style. I build my own packs, using only cells that can repeatedly deliver ~40A cont (good enough by my calcs, right? I hope!)

I know the currrent is less using a HV setup, but I'll need to find a weight/tradeoff there. Unless everyone says 10cell outperforms (duration is my area) 8 in every type of flying.

Mark
CP2-HDX300, 3DPro-HDX300, Shogun SE V2, Belt CP, Eco-8
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
jrvander
Veteran
Location: Mystic, CT

I think it depends on what you're setup is

My head speed is around 1700rpm using symmetrical CF blades, and I have a heavier setup with 5000 mAh packs and a brushless motor, so hovering on my bird will draw more power than a skeleton stock Eco with 8 cells, a brushed motor and flat-bottomed, high lifting wood blades. I currently use the Mega 22/20/3H motor but I'll be swapping it out for a Medusa Afterburner this winter. The kv on the Mega is 1850, so with the proper gearing you can get a good head speed and plenty of power for flying.

I've never had any issues with my CC controllers, they work flawlessly and the downlink programming feature is enough to keep me coming back for more. Castle is constantly improving their software and they publish it for free.

Greybird - I'm glad it hit you and not him! LOL! I think an experienced pilot could control it long enough to set it down and clean out his pants, but I wouldn't want to do it.

I read somewhere that the duration record for the Eco was something like 61 minutes.

- Jon

Jerry wins!
12-13-2006 Over year old.
 
 
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e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > Cheap Eco-8 Setup, 90deg Swash
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