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e-MS Composit Hornet > X3D setup

husafreak
Senior Heliman
Location: NorCal

Help, I have built and set up several great flying heli's, T-REX 450SE, 600, VelociRaptor 50, since I got my X3D. And I am more and more frustrated with the poor habits of my X3D and I don't know how to fix them. So here are a few observations and maybe someone could lend me a hand! I intend to rebuild the Hornet in an attempt to get it right. (Also I have futaba 110's on swash, 401 w/ hs-50 on tail, the recommended outrunner, sc, and Thunder Power 1320's.) First off it is a little nose heavy with the 1320, about perfect with a 910. Big problem is it wants to pitch up with any speed at all, I have to reduce collective and push the nose down with elevator coming out of dives or it balloons up. It kind of feels like the collective and elevator are connected. Second, any time I roll using only aileron and collective ( no elevator) it rears up and goes tail down. If I roll in FFF it often stops or slows and if stationary rolling it will finish out descending backwards. If I go inverted and add power to hover it often tumlbles out, tail down backwards, if I don't get the right inputs in quickly, it's pretty hairy. I didn't use to mind cause I was just cruising around but now I want to do aggressive stunts. I think I just have a lot of bad control interactions at the swash which allways result in unwanted pitch up or tail down movement. Maybe mounting the servos better would help...? I plan to keep flying my X3D, I have another kit on the shelf, I just love the things and I hope they can be setup to fly as neutrally as a bigger bird. Thanks, Eic

11-18-2006 Over year old.

DarkHorse1
Senior Heliman
Location: Gloucester UK

Hi, yes it sure sounds like CCPM interactions from either very bad servo geometry or uneven servo speed response. Try this thread.

Also just recently revisited this subject here.

11-18-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

I've been toying with the idea of ditching my Duzi mounts and coming up with a 120° mount that positions the servo pivots close to the mast with the servo arms outward at or near the same angles as the swash plate ball links -

Can't decide though whether the servo pivots should be in line between the swash ball-links and the mast with the servo arms exactly matching the swash plate angles - or - Servo pivots centered perpendicular to the mast with the arms angled slightly askew to the swash angles.

11-18-2006 Over year old.

DarkHorse1
Senior Heliman
Location: Gloucester UK

I don't know, I haven't noticed any major interactions with vertical servo links at zero pitch. Although there must be some inherent issues as the servo arm arc sweep becomes a problem. I suspect your skill level requires more precision than I'm currently at

11-18-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

I doubt it - I don't really have any complaints about interactions - The geometry of these Duzi mounts just bugs me - And instead of going back to the stock mount I thought I might try something different - Always tinkering - I'm playing with a new tail set right now.

11-18-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

Anyways - Here's how I go about setting up the head -

I start by disconnecting all linkages except the Connecting Rods (E070) -

Then I lift the Stabilizer Bed (E073) off the A/R pins and drop in a spacer between the Stabilizer Bed and A/R (E074) so that the Stabilizer Bed is centered in the A/R pins while resting on the spacer - This sets the proper neutral swash position via the Connecting Rods (E070) -

Now I connect the linkages from the swash to the blade grips and adjust them so the blade grips are level/neutral with the flybar also level -

The swash should hang pretty level at this point so now with the radio in hold and the collective stick neutral adjust the servos so with the servo links 90° to the servo arms the servo links are in line with the swash ball-links - Size the servo links and snap them onto the swash ball-links -

Now disconnect some linkages so the spacer can be removed from the A/R then reconnect them -

My swash mixes with my DX6 are CP2=60% CP3=60% CP6=30%.

11-18-2006 Over year old.

husafreak
Senior Heliman
Location: NorCal

OK, Thanks, I'm going to try what you said. I will try to get circular servo wheels too so I can zero out the sub trims and drill mounting holes at 90 degrees. I know I have to lift the servos a bit so the arms won't hit the mounting plate too. Maybe T-REX ball links could be used. But I still wonder, can the Hornet be as neutral as a T-REX, or are they just different? It sounds like they are hard to get perfect! Also, I read a two part article by James Wang that had me substitute the MS one piece tail rotor on my X3D's and that's all I have ever used. It works well and seems smooth. Any thoughts on this vs. the stock X3D tail rotor setup? Eric

11-20-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

What servos are you using? If HiTec servos then you should be able to get it close with the double ended arms by turning them 180° for 1/2 tooth differences - Some sub-trim should be ok if it's only about 30 or less.

11-20-2006 Over year old.

quickster47
Heliman
Location: Orlando, FL and Washington, D.C.

What Article

"Also, I read a two part article by James Wang that had me substitute the MS one piece tail rotor on my X3D's and that's all I have ever used."

Curious about the article you read by James Wang and was wondering if it is on RunRyder or if not, could you tell me where it is located?

Thanks,

Carl

A good day flying is when you don't have to fix anything at night.

11-20-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

DarkHorse1
Senior Heliman
Location: Gloucester UK

Hi, I tried the one piece tail, it's very cheap, simple and works but it's no substitute in the air for the finesse of the latest X-3D with bearing blade grips. The one piece blades are fixed and more likely to stress the conical if snagged.

11-20-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

quickster47
Heliman
Location: Orlando, FL and Washington, D.C.

Dark Horse, thanks for that information. Guess that is why I wanted to peruse the article so I could learn what James Wang was writing about.

Carl

A good day flying is when you don't have to fix anything at night.

11-20-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

husafreak
Senior Heliman
Location: NorCal

Oh, my swash servo's are Futaba 110's, they are nice servos but have very course pitch servo arm pinions each staion is abou 15-20 deg.. I just though maybe subtrim is bad, you know how it is when you want to try everything... The James Wang articles were in Quiet Flyer October and November 2005 and were all about the Hornet. It was very specific about radio programming and setup so it was great for me at the time, now it seems pretty basic. He said it was hard to get vibrations out of the tail and the easiest solution was the one piece tail, but it is kind of cheesy, just bent plastic for all the joints. It is a cool article if you love Hornets and James W. is definitely "the man" in the print world. I'm gonna try the X3D tail. You know its funny, today I flew my Velociraptor 50 with a new metal head and innfinivation damping (a hot seup) and I was really pushing it hard, I've been on the sim alot and I'm trying much harder to 3D all my heli's. Well it is starting to show some very minor couplng issues too. I think setup probably gets more important the more sensitive and powerfull you set up your heli and how hard you push it. I gots a lot to lern

Eric

11-21-2006 Over year old.

Den Of Earth
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA

You might want to check out these mounts.

These mounts were designed and machined by Intruder. If you look at his gallery you will see shots with the swash and the linkages hooked up. Much better alignment than the Duzi mounts.

Jack

11-21-2006 Over year old.

husafreak
Senior Heliman
Location: NorCal

Are they for sale?

11-21-2006 Over year old.

Den Of Earth
Heliman
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA

As of about 6 months ago Intruder was still making them. I sent an RR email so hopefully he will pop in with some info. I can't find his regular email address so hopefully he will get the RR one. He designed and machined these a few years ago after getting a set of the Duzi mounts and being disappointed with how they worked. I haven't been able to finish my Hornet yet as I got back into R\C car racing about 6 months ago and don't have time for the Heli right now, but I remembered reading about the issues he went through during the design process and decided at some point I would get a set. Just before I got back into racing they were having a sale on Hornet2's so I picked one up and ordered a set of Intruder's mounts. I got them mounted then put the Hornet on the shelf till I have time to finish it. I still follow the forums so when I saw this post I thought I would let you guys know about them. If they are still avalible you will not be disappointed. He used to offer them for both HS-50's HS-55's and Futaba 3108's and the 3110's which is what I am using in mine. Here is the link http://runryder.com/helicopter/gallery/6476/ to Intruder's gallery which has some more pics. Don't be confused as there is a pic of his Heli with the Duzi mounts on it, but that was before he made his own. I will keep looking for his email address to see what's up.

Jack

11-21-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

Interesting, I was just about to post some information about my experience with the mounts. I also have a set that I purchased from Intruder. I've actually been trying to get ahold of him for a few days now.

I also decided to mount the roll (CH1 and 6) mounts just in front of the mast so I would have room for my GY240 but I've come across noticing a problem. The mounts were designed for the s3108 but the s3110 has the same dimensions which fit perfectly. I'm not 100% whether there is any difference between the two servos other than specifications but I'll have to look it up. My gut tells me no.

Anyhow, with the roll mount placed just fore of the mast, the sero arms sit fore of the swashplate balls. Meaning the servo arms aren't sitting parrallel to the main mast. I'm guessing this is source of my interaction problem.

The elevator mount can be placed anywhere which allows you to get the servo arm placed directly under the swashball so no problems here. I hope to be hearing from Intruder any day..

Raz

11-22-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

I have my Duzi mounts in front of the mast like Intruder did and used to use 6mm spacers between the mounts and my HS-55 servos to line the servos up under the swash ball links - Then I switched to HS-56s which line up pretty well without a need for spacers -

I'm thinking of maybe going back to a tray but in the new configuration I described above.

11-23-2006 Over year old.

Razmo
Key Veteran
Location: Chicago

I figured this is what I was going to have to do. As mentioned, I've been trying to get ahold of Intruder for a a few days now, hoping he can recreate some new mounts so I don't have to incorporate spacers.

I was also toying with a similar new design that allow all the servos to lay flat using a similar brace to that of what Duzi and Intruder have created but I don't know CAD nor do I own the milling equipment ;( Otherwise I was hoping to talk to intruder to alter his existing design (different than Duzi's) with somewhat of a Z bend allowing the servo arms to sit perfectly parrallel to the main mast on both axis. This should rid any and all eCCPM interaction.

p.s. I really like the s3110's. They are a tremendous leap to that of the s3108.

Raz

11-23-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

There is the HeliUp Revolution CF frame with metal servo mounts - But it's way spendy -

http://modefosheli.com/inc/sdetail/438

I'd rather chisel out my own design with a dremel than pay that.

11-23-2006 Over year old.

Micro-Maniac
Elite Veteran
Location: Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

I'm just gonna to make a stiff round disk of a servo tray and position my servos on it the way I want 'em - I have some nice firm servo tape to use - I'll elevate the servos a bit with extra tray material for arm deflection clearance.

11-25-2006 Over year old.

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e-MS Composit Hornet > X3D setup

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