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Autography FlightPower . Advantage Hobby . Revolution Models

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Main Discussion > Raptor 30 Grip Flip?????
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

OK so before I get into building my new Raptor i was wanting to know. Should I do the main blade grip flip that I keep hearing so much about? This is not at all my first heli. But it is my first Raptor. So I want it to perform right. So can anyone tell me what the "real" benifits are to doing this? And where i can find the instructions on the how to's? Should I just build it as stock, and then see what happens? Or shoud I just add this step to my building? Any other building tips that I should do while building? Thanks in advance for the help.


I am open for suggestions!
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

After seeing it fix a terminal "woofer" I think you should build it that way. It's straight forward, Flip the grips and the flybar (and support) and reverse the collective servo. Set the curves and that's it.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

The flybar???????? I afraid I dont get that part. Do you mean the flybar control arms or something? If so I will be useing the aluminum stabalizer set from TT. So how would this be done with that? I am assuming that you mean to put the seesaw arms on backwards as opposed to how it is done in the manual. Please explain.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

Remove the flybar (The whole thing)abd flip it over to get the pitch arms on the correct side.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
heliman41
Key Veteran
Location: Valparaiso IN. USA

Brian,
The nice thing about doing it the first time is that you dont have to remove the paddles and re align everything again if you just go ahead and do it the first time. The biggest problem causing mainblade probs anyway is head slop and/or a bad set of blades. The slop in the rappy head is from the loose mixing base and then the plastic swashplate next, the 2 combined can sometimes create probs. I highly recemend a metal mixing base, Ricks and Helihut both have em. The swashplate is fine for a season or so. There is more to it than just rotating the maingrips, the mixing levers on the head seasaw hub must also be switched end to end also but thats all there is to it really. If you dont replace the mixing base then do this test, after building the heli place a paddle in your hand and gently try to rotate it you WILL see it rock on the mainshaft and also see the swashplate give some also thats what causes most flutters is this slop, the paddle will rotate about an 1/8" back and forth with the plastic mixing base and does affect fast forward flight modes as a pitching prob. Switching the grips will help to avoid flutter but not the pitching prob only removing the slop will do that.
At our field several of us have switched the bases and noticed improvment in FF with no pitching anymore and hovering was also more precise and stable.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

OK with that I will tell you that I am building the heli with a Quick UK swashplate as well as an all metal washout unit. And I already have the washout base from HeliHut for it as well. Actually the ONLY stock parts on the head are going to be the blade grips. All of the rest of the head is going to be metal. And I am also going to get the metal blade grips from Cyberheli as soon as his secure site is up. Which will make the WHOLE head metal. So with all of that. Should I just skip the flip mod all together? Thanks for the imfo thus far! Keep it comeing.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
heliman41
Key Veteran
Location: Valparaiso IN. USA

If you have done all that to the head it probably wont make much diff either way,(unless you run crappy woodies), tho I myself would still rotate everything just because I can.The new V2 Raptor 60 has the grips switched does that make you wonder? It does me, plus most helis use a leading setup not a trailing on the mains so I think TT was experimenting and found it wasnt so great an idea afterall, why the new kits dont switch who knows maybe its too much trouble to change the manual or to add appendum pages.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

So let me get this completely straight. You put the main blade grips on flipped over. And the seesaw arms on the oposite way as shown in the manual. And thats it. Do you put the pushrod on in the same spots respectfully. I.E. the short side of the seesaw arm still links to the blade grip. And the long side still goes to the swashplate. I don't mean to belabor this stuff. I just want to get it right. But to answer your qusestion. Yes I noticed that TT did this mod on the Raptor 60. And yes it does make me wonder why they haven't changed the manual for the 30 so it was the same. And I am going to run either MS Carbon blades or FG blades. I would like to go carbon. But I really want white blades. And have yet to find a set that I realy liked. But I have been running MS blades on my Hawk (before it met its maker). Any suggestions on good, white all carbon blades?
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Augusto
rrAdvertiser
Location: San Diego, CA

For the blades flipping you check this pictures with comments. They are part of RunRyder's content area:









Avant Aurora Ultimate
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
CCoker
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlanta,GA

the SAB's I'm runing right now seem to work well and there all white.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

Now that does help quite a bit. But what does the circled spot indicate? Is there an aditional step, or part I need to aquire?

Thanks for the pics though. This clears a lot up for me. And I think I get it now. Where did you get the SAB blades? And were they resonably priced?
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
CCoker
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlanta,GA

Heilproz has them for about $45 I think, but cyberheli sells them for like $35.

P.S. I've got R30 with out the "flip" and it been working fine. but some of the guys I fly with " who are a lot more advanced than me" swear by it
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Augusto
rrAdvertiser
Location: San Diego, CA

The circled spot is for a modification that Ken Kammerer talks about in his website. Just disregard it.

Avant Aurora Ultimate
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Buzzin Brian
Elite Veteran
Location: College Station, Texas

Thanks guys. I am going to build it that way.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
d_wheel
Veteran
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas.

Raptor head flip

Hello Buzzin,

Although a picture is worth a thousand words (and the ones from ColeopTer are great), it looks like there may be few points that are not obvious. Here's a step by step for doing the job.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Flipping the Raptor head.


(Before starting, measure and write down your pitch settings.)

1) Remove the head bolt (Page 12, No. 1).

2) Pop the oval links Page (11, No. 25) and mixing rods (Page 12 top, No. 4) loose at the bottom.


3) Pop the wash out links (Page 7, bottom, No. 8) off of the swash and remove the wash out subassembly. The links will have to be modified slightly. If you look closely, you will see they are beveled inside the “y” on one side. Use a file or sharp knife and remove enough material to match this bevel on the opposite side.

4) Turn the wash out subassembly over, and slide it back on the shaft. Pop the wash out links back on, push the swash all the way up and tilt it to it’s full left/right/fore/aft position making sure the wash out links do not bind against the arms (Page 7 bottom, No. 7). If they do, remove more material as noted above. When everything is working freely, pop the wash out links and oval links back on.


5) Remove the lock nuts from the feathering shaft (Page 11, No. 27), pop both double links (Page 11, No. 26) completely off, and remove the blade grips. Rotate the grips 180 degrees and reinstall the grips and lock nuts.

6) Modify both double links as follows. Remove a link from one end of each and replace with a standard length ball link. In every case I have tried, these needed to be installed with CA glue as the new links were a little loose on the threads. After modification, pop one end back on the blade grips.


7) Loosen the flybar control rod set screws (Page 11, No 4), rotate the control rods 180 degrees, and re-tighten the set screws. Since these are now not on the flat area of the rod, you will have to be careful to keep the arms and paddles aligned while tightening.

8) Remove both mixing levers (Page 11, No. 22), flip over 180 degrees, and re-attach to the opposite end of the flybar seesaw hub (Page 11, No. 21). Don’t forget the loctite. Pop the double links and long linkage rods back on.


9) Install the head on your Raptor and re-attach the wash out links and long linkage rods to the swash.

10) Reverse the direction of the collective servo.

After double checking that everything is tight and installed correctly, you are ready to re-do your pitch settings and fly.

-----------------------------------------------

As a side note, the extended blade grip balls shown in the pictures are not addressed in my procedure, and probably are not necessary if you decide to perform the flip. I have tried these and found them to work by themselves (without the flip) for stopping woof, so doing both would be overkill (IMHO).

The best cure for woof is good blades. I have been using SAB's for over a year on stock heads without any problems at all.

Later;

D.W.
01-16-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Raydee
Veteran
Location: Western New York

My friend has been flying his Raptor for quite a while and performed the blade grip extension mod and says it made a big difference in the woof and poof problem. He says it is called the Delta Zero mod and the head flip isn't needed if this is done.

The Future of Nitro is ELECTRIC
01-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
slingblade
Heliman
Location: Bay Area

Raptor blade grips

Now that you have already purchased the Raptor, it is no use telling you to purchase some other model that does not have the "problem issues" of the Raptor. It still remains a mystery why TT, after two years, have still not adressed these issues.

Therefore while you are at it, you might as well do some other modes that are required to make your new Raptor fly and be as dependable as some of its competition.

1) The flip mode will help with the 'woof and poof' issue.

2) Be sure to also purchase a decent muffler to go with it (the Century CN3033 that comes with the Hawk or the TT upgrade unit) rather then then the loud, leaky and problem prone inexpensive TT two piece stock unit.

3) - Be sure to install a clutch lining from another brand that will give you proper clearance so that the clutch will last a decent length of time.

4 - You may want to go to a better swashplate right from te start also, as the stock unit runs with an excessive amount of play early on.

These are some of the major issues but as you progress you can solve any of the others you will see many Raptor flyers have adressed in the past. See the Raptor section of this site.

Then you will know why it is no longer the recommended trainer in these parts. In this millenium, a beginner should be happily learning to fly, not to solve design problems.
01-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Raydee
Veteran
Location: Western New York

I really hate to say it but I do agree with you 100% But the palin fact is once all these issues are worked out the Raptor is a great flying heli for the price!

I have also heard from a friend that the new Raptor clutch liner is a bit thicker than the old ones? Is this true?

The Future of Nitro is ELECTRIC
01-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
FlyinBrian
Veteran
Location: USA

Hi,

Its funny how things work out for different people. I'd give it a try box stock first, if woof'n'poof shows up it's worth trying to fix it. But if it aint broke dont fix it........

I tried the 0 delta mod on my raptor 30+sab carbon 550's, woof'n'poof showed up when trying to land on the ground. I finally had to do an auto to land. I did like the way it felt in the air but being able to land without destroying the heli is pretty important to me

Flip Grip Mod (stock delta) I decided to try on a new Raptor I was putting together for myself with a few of the reasonbly priced upgrades (metal pitch arm, metal swash, metal aileron levers, 3d fins, sab carbon 550's (same set as above).

Finished it all up and to be perfect honest it flew like crap, darty, unstable, twitchy, really made you work the sticks to get a half way decent hover, extremely pitchy in fff. Also wanted to ballon up and down quite abit in the wind. Pretty much unstable sums it up best!

Flipped everything back to the stock trailing edge pitch control and it flies like a raptor should, fairly stable in gusty (25mph+) winds for a 30, solid fff, etc.

All 3 of mine are still stock with the bass ackwards delta, no woof'n'poof. Quite a few people seem to be having good luck with the flip grip, and most seem to like it but it did'nt work for me at all.
01-17-2002 Over year old.
 
 
The_Dave
Veteran
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Not the recomended trainer

Ok I will bite, what is the "recomended" trainer in your area??

Sounds like some of you should be pulling down an easy 6 figure salary as engineers????

As the owner of several raptors, all of which fly excellent, I find it odd that all of these mods are needed to make them fly right. I have had none of the problems described here, and my clutch went after 22 gallons of fuel. It was 10 bucks to replace and is still going strong....can't see that as a problem the requires me to re-engineer the clutch system.

Never had the woof problem, ever. Seems to me that if it is a "design" issue that TT has not addressed I should be having the same problems as everyone else but yet my machines are rock solid. As the raptor is common to everyone and it is the builder that is the variable, perhaps the problem is somewhere else???

Poor is the carpenter who blames his tools.....

Nomex suite on......

Mark McAlpine - 2005 - We will never forget.
01-17-2002 Over year old.
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