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e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > Extreme wobble!...please help!
 
 
imora99
Heliman
Location: El Salvador

I just got my first helis ever, a couple of ECO-16. I figured since I can't find any parts locally, I should have enough spares just in case, so why not the complete heli.. I am learning to hover still and barely get a couple of inches off the ground for a few seconds with training gear. Everything was running right on target, no vibrations, perfect tracking (#67151 FG Blades), barely warm temperatures on the motor(H16) and ESC(CC HV45), hovering would begin at 1250-1300 rpm, at 69% throttle (JR 8103). Then, I decided to use the stock wooden blades that come with the ECO16, since they are longer then the FG I thought maybe they would give me more stability and make it easier to learn to hover. So I stuck the whole weight in the groove, put some tape on top and to get them balanced as well and tried them on. I slowly spooled up, and everything seemed to be fine. Throttled up a bit more, and slowly increased to hovering speed and it lifted off. I had it at around 3" or 4" off the ground and immediately noticed how stable it was, it just stood there like if it was still on the floor!!..., for few seconds (less then 10) it was so stable I couldn't believe it. Then it started to vibrate very subtle, I spooled down since it had never vibrated at all and decided to check what could be the problem. I checked everything, nothing seemed to be wrong. I spooled up again, only this time it started to wobble immediatelly so violently not even at 10% throttle that I had to throttle down. Despite cutting off power it continued to increase the wobble while stopping to the point that the blades hit the boom a couple of times. After that, no matter what I try it will wobble incontrolably as soon as I start to spool up. I have tried everything that I can think off. First I changed back to the FG blades, then replaced the boom, used a 3rd. set of wooden blades that I have, replaced the feather shaft, replaced the main shaft, the main gear, heck even the whole rotor head!...I even put together the other helicopter, replaced the stock swash with the aluminum upgrade at 120° and I have the same problem!!...this are brand new helis, never crashed and by now I know they are put together exactly as the manual indicates, moreover, I know the heli was spinning great before I had the great idea of trying the wooden blades. I am sorry this is such a long post, I just have run out of ideas and I would really appreciate some help. Thanks to all for taking the time.
David
09-15-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Jungle Bob
Senior Heliman
Location: Borneo, Malaysia

Wobble

I am not an expert but I had a similar problem recently. I sought advice and was told my headspeed was too low, I upped it and the wobble went away.....sounds like you have the same problem, hope this helps
09-16-2006 Over year old.
 
 
heli_madken
Senior Heliman
Location: Liverpool, England

It does sound like a head speed problem, hovering should begin at 50% throttle so increase your throttle curve.

Also make sure your blades are fastened with the correct tension, they should just fall slowly on there own if held upright. The Eco does tend to wobble from start of spool you might find it helps (if you have an auto hub) to spin the blades by hand before retreating to spool up, helps to stop initial blade lag
09-16-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
mjdee14
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville , TN

Wobble...

I agree with the above....make sure you have good tension on the blades and good head speed.....

I had a really bad wobble on shut down...."The Chicken dance" and one of the heli guys had me tighten the blades much more than I thought it should be and it stopped.

Try different tensions on the blades...looser...tighter..etc.

I also assume you have properly checked and balanced all the blades....and the woodies you put he weight in hasn't moved?

this may be dumb but make sure you have both blades going in the right direction...I put one on backwards at the field and couldn't get it to track....also....make sure the tracking is "dead on" I got a vibration from being just a little out of track...

Every "little" thing out of adjustment adds up to a big vibration...

Good luck and post your results...

i love the ECO...great flying heli for the money...

Mike... Blade CP, HBCP2, Revo w/belt drive, Zoom 400, Eco 8, Hurricane 550, DX7 2.4
09-16-2006 Over year old.
 
 
imora99
Heliman
Location: El Salvador

Wobble

Hi guys, and thanks for your advice.
I have tried different settings with different blades, tighter, looser, FG, wooden, to no effect. It wobbles violently all the same. I canīt increase headspeed because it just wonīt allow me to spool up. As soon as I start passing 10% throttle it just start wobbling so violently that it would tip over if I continue spooling up. I have also tried changing the stock gear for the auto rotation one. Checked the blades, they are on track and properly assembled. What puzzles me the most is that before I tried the wooden blades it was hovering just great with the FG. No vibrations of any kind, and I am sure it has not hit anything. Just in case, I have replaced all the shafts even thou the old ones checked fine on top of a glass surface.
09-16-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Jungle Bob
Senior Heliman
Location: Borneo, Malaysia

Wobble

In that case, and the only other thing I can think of, is the frame. The stock frame was not very well designed (sorry Ikarus..I do love my Eco 8..honest!) and requires bracing. There is an upgrade plate available which sits behind the motor and just infront of the head stock. This prevents the frame from flexing under load and most upgraded Eco's have it. Try hold the head while the skids are on a firm surface and manually flex the head gear from side to side. It it gives you quite alot of movement then it needs to be 'braced'. Good luck. It is a good heli so keep trying. Check your frame for cracks! Bob
09-16-2006 Over year old.
 
 
GyroFreak
Key Veteran
Location: Florida ... 28° 50' N 81° 16' W

Just a couple of WAGS from a novice who still uses training gear. Make sure your training gear is fastened so it can't slide a small amount. I use electrical tape to assure its frimly attached but easy to cut off. Also the cg of the training gear should be close to the vertical cg of the chopper, not excact, but close for me.
Also any fractured struts wil cause problems badly with traing gear attached. Have you tried without the training gear, just to get some more data ?

Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have. !
09-16-2006 Over year old.
 
 
mjdee14
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville , TN

Wobble...

Have you tried spinning it up "without" the blades on? Just holding it down and see if you can pinpoint the source of the wobble.

PLease keep leting us know what have tried....because if I understand you correctly you have built the second Eco and still have the same problem....

Are you watching the servos to make sure they are not "Twitching"...giving you what looks like a wobble?

Without the blades on you should be able to run it up (not all the way) but enough to see if the blades were the cause....or the bearings....etc.

Something just sound right.....since the only common thing you are using between the two Ecos are the motor and the radio, right?

The frame flex is a problem but i wouldn't think it would show up that soon and that bad...but anythings possible.

"bring it up Nashville TN , USA and we'll take a look at it....!!



Mike

Mike... Blade CP, HBCP2, Revo w/belt drive, Zoom 400, Eco 8, Hurricane 550, DX7 2.4
09-17-2006 Over year old.
 
 
thewade
Heliman
Location: Atlanta. GA

I NEVER successfully balanced my blades without checking them against a pitch guage. I have a frame brace and can still get the same wobble from being one turn out on a blade. After too many adjustments, i measure all linkages against the instruction manual and start over from there. The heavier wood blades seem to accentuate even the slightest pitch difference.
09-19-2006 Over year old.
 
 
imora99
Heliman
Location: El Salvador

Wobble...

Hi guys, and thanks again for your interest, certainly feels less frustrating to share my problem and have additional opinions to the possible solution. One major development, I was able to work on it yesterday, re-checked everything one more time, changed motor (was H16 now is FUN600-15)re-balanced the blades (FG)and tried once again. Sure enough the same extreme wobble at very low rpms happened. Having read several replies mentioning the head speed, and out of pure frustration, I then grabbed the darn thing by the battery and lifted it on top of my head (I know, I know...crazy!) while slowly increasing throttle. I could then feel that the wobble is totally sideways, not front to back. After a few seconds realizing I could hold it with one hand, and slowly increasing throttle with the other without loosing my head, I spooled up a bit more and slowly tilted the heli rolling it sideways. As I'd tilt it I could feel the wobble diminishing, kept tilting even further towards the right as if I was applying full stick to the right and then suddenly the wobble stopped!...finally!!...I then very carefully put the chopper down on the floor (and my head out of harms way ) and continued increasing throttle all the way to hovering speed and it showed no vibration whatsoever. I throttled back down, stopped the blades and tried once more, and again the wobble started. Proceeded to grab it by the tail this time and started tilting carefully and once more I was able to achieve enough head speed to hover again.
My conclusion is that the problem is in the blades or rather in the way they are being held. Not that they are out of balance or anything but rather that at spool up the blades are not aligned properly thus the wobble. Now the problem is that I have loosened up the grip on the blades so much to the point where I don't think is safe to loosen further, and still I get the wobble. So is not that. I am trying the stock wooden blades that came with the ECO16 kit, and a set of 67151 Semi Symmetrical 1060 mm. The woodies I attach directly to the blade holder and FG came with a nylon spacer that I put between the blade and the holder. Any ideas what else could I try?...thanks again.
09-19-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Jungle Bob
Senior Heliman
Location: Borneo, Malaysia

Wobble

It sounds like the problem I mentioned earlier, is your frame distorting as you increase your throttle? Secure it to a bench and view it from behind with the canopy and blades off. Throttle up and down sharply. Watch your head gear above the swashplate and see if the top of the head flexes the frame. It may need stiffening (either carbon frame sides or the aluminium plate I mentioned early)Good luck
09-19-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Brett Sumpter
Heliman
Location: Roswell, GA

If loosening the blades didn't help, don't be afraid to tighten them (if you balance everything & lock them down so they can't move at all when aligned prefectly you'll be fine) - but the real key is getting them at the same tension in the grips.

The Eco has a very flexable frame so any little thing gets magnified...
09-19-2006 Over year old.
 
 
helicrazi
Senior Heliman
Location: Beaumont, CA.

I don't know if this will help, I just resently was trying to track down a wobble on my Eco 8, had been flying fine, I had the hardest time finding it, it turnd out to be that the mixing arms had come ever so lose, or woren, snuged them up and wobble went away !!! ch over every thing, could just be something like this. I didn't think it could have caused it but it did.
09-20-2006 Over year old.
 
 
mjdee14
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville , TN

Wobble..

Try what Brett suggests...tighten them up , just make sure they are both straight.....as I said in an earlier post...I had the "chicken dance on shut down....and a slight wobble on start up..that went away when I tighened the blades much more than I ordinarily would.

Sounds like your zeroing in on it....

keep us posted...this is how we all learn..

Mike... Blade CP, HBCP2, Revo w/belt drive, Zoom 400, Eco 8, Hurricane 550, DX7 2.4
09-21-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Hozer
Heliman
Location: midwest

Take the head o-rings out, go get the next size smaller.
09-28-2006 Over year old.
 
 
halnwheels
Heliman
Location: Passaic Park, NJ USA

If you have a situation where you can't get consistant tracking or lack of vibration, think about the feather shaft. That's the shaft between the blade grips. Remove the blades and put a 5.5 nutdriver on one of the feather shaft nuts and rotate the nut. If the feather shaft is not straight, you'll see the blade grips wobbling as you rotate the shaft. What this means is that if the bent shaft is rotating you'll have inconsistant tracking. Bad tracking WILL cause a wobble.

I have not found the stock frame to be a problem, although I have put in a vertical brace behind the motor.

When I put together my first heli (my eco 8) I put it on a workbench and crouched down below the table level and pretty much did what you described to feel how the heli responded to inputs. Very revealing. Remember not to get up while it's in motion!!

How're ya making out? Any progress?
09-29-2006 Over year old.
 
 
mjdee14
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville , TN

( Not that they are out of balance or anything but rather that at spool up the blades are not aligned properly thus the wobble. Now the problem is that I have loosened up the grip on the blades so much to the point where I don't think is safe to loosen further, and still I get the wobble. So is not that. I am trying the stock wooden blades that came with the ECO16 kit, and a set)Quote

Imora.....when you said you are "loosening" the blade grips. you are talking about the bolt that goes throught the blade holder and the blade, correct? You said "I don't think it's safe"...you could loosen the nut almost all the way off and it still would be OK...because the through bolt holds the blade in.... You are not loosening the nut on the "feathering shaft are you"? the one that holds both blade holders on?

Make sure both bell hiller arms are the same on both sides...(I don't think you can mess those up with the molded nylon balls....but you can with the metal head. and the arms are on the leading edge of the blade holders...

If your blades are that far out of track you need to fix that or else you will get a severe wobble.

Check that ALL the linkages are the correct length, per the instructions.... If both rods going to the flybars are the same...and both to the bell hiller are are the same...it should not be that far off on spool up. I just installed the metel haed on mine and used a micrometer to measure all the rods and they were "dead on" with no tracking required.

I still assume ALL parts are new as you said in your earlier posts and nothing is bent....

Someone above mentioned the O rings in the head....you should not be able to move the blades holders up and down too much....if you can...then check the o rings are proper installed.

If possible, post some close ups of the head assembly from differnt angles....maybe we can see something obvious that you are missing.

keep us posted as I really want to know what fixes this..

Mike

Mike... Blade CP, HBCP2, Revo w/belt drive, Zoom 400, Eco 8, Hurricane 550, DX7 2.4
09-29-2006 Over year old.
 
 
imora99
Heliman
Location: El Salvador

Finally!...I found out what the problem was.

I decided to let it rest for a while, since I had run out of options, and decided to go at it again just a few days ago. I went for something new and EUREKA!...I finally figured it out and it was all my fault. When I put together the flybar I left a little gap on purpose between the flybar seesaw and the seesaw lever, thinking that way they wouldn't rub to each other. Naturally I did the same thing with the other model when I put it together and that is why both models would have the same behaviour. I was putting them together exactly the wrong way!...

Thank god all is good now and I can move on to more flying (more like learning to hover still ).

Thanks to all for you comments, I thought it was important to let you know where the problem was, for the record...(even if it was all my fault )
10-31-2006 Over year old.
 
 
mjdee14
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville , TN

Imorra....Glad you found the problem....and posting it here. Maybe it will save someone next time this comes up. We'll certainly use it as one of the areas of attention...

happy flying....I love my Eco...for my style of flying..

Mike

Mike... Blade CP, HBCP2, Revo w/belt drive, Zoom 400, Eco 8, Hurricane 550, DX7 2.4
11-01-2006 Over year old.
 
 
beefcake
Senior Heliman
Location: Racine,WI

Quote 
When I put together the flybar I left a little gap on purpose between the flybar seesaw and the seesaw lever, thinking that way they wouldn't rub to each other. Naturally I did the same thing with the other model when I put it together and that is why both models would have the same behaviour. I was putting them together exactly the wrong way!...




How much gap did you leave?

I found that in putting it together, I had to ensure that the seesaw levers were NOT right up against the seesaw, as it would then bind slightly... I wonder how much is perfect?

-CaKe
11-02-2006 Over year old.
 
 
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e-Ikarus Piccolo-Eco 8/16 > Extreme wobble!...please help!
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