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MTA Hobbies . Model Rectifier Corp . PowerHelis

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Main Discussion > Radio internals photos requested
 
 
w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

CAN ANYONE PLZ POST A PICTURE OF THE Futaba 12Z INTERNALS?

Thinking about getting a faster radio but I will need to modify the cyclic stick...

I am thinking about the following two:
Futaba 12Z
Airtronics Stylus

Can someone post here, or email me, detail photos of the right (cyclic) stick at the inside of these transmitters (left stick if looking on the rear and antenna up)?
I need to be able to see how the stick case is attached to the housing and if there is a way and room to rotate the case in the housing. A photo straight on the rear covering half of the Tx from the side of the Tx up to the middle, along with a few photos a bit from the sides covering the same area hopefully will do.
05-29-2006 Over year old.
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w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

anyone?
05-30-2006 Over year old.
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greenboot
Senior Heliman
Location: St Louis, Mo

What are you making and what do you mean by a faster radio?

Tom
05-30-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Rappy30
Senior Heliman
Location: South Riding, VA - US

don't have pictures

There is a screw on the 12z that will allow the sort of adjustment you are talking about out of the box.
05-30-2006 Over year old.
 
 
w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

From the manual I understood that the screw can adjust the stick such that it tilts towards the side in neutral. But that's not the rotation that I want.

Faster means that the latency will be way lower than with most other radios.
05-31-2006 Over year old.
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w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

Anyone? I can not find shops having these transmitters in stock in the Netherlands either so I'm hoping someone here is willing to open his'
06-08-2006 Over year old.
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KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

can your fingers move the stick across and back in 0.23 seconds with full coordination?

pretty much no one can do that, but that is the transit time of a 'slow' futaba 9202...a servo whose 'latency' can still do extreme 3-d

so why all the faster servos and radios? because their are people who cant do math or dont practice enough to know a tenth of a second can be found or lost in other places....i.e. arm lengths, collective range, curve, radio stick length, etc, etc.

if you want low 'latency' at the radio, the Stylus is rated the fastest, but in the real world its like hinging your bets on plastic servo arms versus metal ones, not gonna make much difference.
06-08-2006 Over year old.
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Ga33er
Heliman
Location: UK

What exactly do you want to achieve with the cyclic stick? What will it do when modified?
06-08-2006 Over year old.
 
 
RCfan
Key Veteran
Location: Longwood, FL USA

I don't have any pics of the 12Z, but I do have the 14MZ. The 12Z gimbals are supposed to be identical. Check here: http://www.rcfan.com/cgi/gallery?name=T14MZ,page=1
06-08-2006 Over year old.
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arceye
Veteran
Location: UK

Ga33er:

If I am understanding correctly what he wants is to buy a faster ( less latency ) radio, but he wants to modify the cyclic stick by rotating the gimble so instead of elevator being straight up and down it is slightely offset like maybe 1 and 7 o'clock position and aeleron would be 4 and 10 o'clock position, Some RC car radio's allowed this and it did make the sticks more comfortable for a lot of people.



Andy


Kasama Head :(
The Blingiest DOWNGRADE a Raptor can have
06-09-2006 Over year old.
 
 
JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

KC,
I would have to disagree completely with your statements. Having flown a heli with a Futaba 9C and then a Stylus with NO OTHER CHANGES in the heli and the same exact control throws, there is a quite noticeable difference in how the helicopter feels and reacts. There is even a very noticeable difference in how the servos follow the sticks on the bench.

Those who have changed from anything but a Stylus to a 14MZ (and now 12Z) have experienced this as well. Those who have flown my heli with the Stylus ALWAYS comment on how immediate and connected it feels (unless they are use to a 14MZ/12Z).

There is one big control loop going on and reducing the latency in that control loop does indeed make a difference.

If you always fly, say, a 9C then you will be use to the latency and learn to lead the heli. The slower the servos, the more you'll learn to lead the heli. Now switch to a Stylus with decent servos and it will be whole different experience.

w.pasman,
Here are some shots of the Stylus.


- John

Protos -- Logo 10
06-09-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Helibras
Senior Heliman
Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Multiplex transmiter has this feature (you can rotate both sticks).

It's a great radio


Gravity... the force to be defeated
Raptor 50SE; Hyper
Vigor CS; OS 91C-Spec MPII
06-09-2006 Over year old.
 
 
w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

Many thanks for these photos!! RCFan, excellent quality!

I am surprised to see how hard it is to judge if this mod is possible from these photos. Nothing wrong with the photos but it is just extremely hard to judge which parts are a single piece of plastic and where they are connected to.
The airtronics sticks look most like the sticks in the Futaba 8S I have now. But it is much more crowded around the stick construction. In fact it looks like the stick construction is integrated into the body instead of being separately bolted on. Looks problematic to rotate the sticks here
The 14MZ does have slightly more space around the sticks and the sticks look a separate unit. But the electroncs are too close to enable rotation here too...

Is the 12Z just as crowded or is there more space around the stick modules?
06-09-2006 Over year old.
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w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

Yes today someone showed me that multiplex has this possibility.
However you can rotate only a small angle (15 degrees I estimate). I want 45 degrees.
And the main reason to think about a new Tx is that I want lower latency
06-09-2006 Over year old.
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w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

Andy,

Thanks for that explanation. That's what I mean. Actually I want to have a lot more rotation of the sticks, the elevator at half past ten and the aileron on half past two. Yes this modification is for ergonomic and mental-load reasons. It takes quite some time to get used to, especially when you flew straight-stick first, it but I think it works out in the end.
06-09-2006 Over year old.
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w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

KC

As John already pointed out, latency is hard to see but still it will have dramatic effects. I think it is safe to say that all your flying will be influenced by it, whether you are conscious of the latency or not.
I know of experiments showing that the human visual system (that is, what you see) will degrade in performance already when 8 milliseconds ( or 0.008 seconds) of latency are present. And the visual system is actually one of the slowest systems in the human, there is an awful lot of "processing" required to convert the eyes' images into a perception. Yet, 8 milliseconds is a lot smaller than the latency of even the fastest of today's radios.
06-09-2006 Over year old.
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KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

Pasman, I am aware of the differences in radios but there are also 50 other differences in the control system that are a whole lot cheaper and faster to change if you are looking for a particular feel...problem is, you got to go through those 50 things to find what you like, sounds like the radio is very important to you, cool.

you're right, theres a lot of studies that show the human eye takes about a 10th to register from closed to open, the figure you mentioned, and I can tell you my fingers consistently take 0.19 to start and stop a stopwatch....I guess my point is that you can have the fastest latency and most connected feel or whatever through the radio, but the real place to speed up the game is in the fingers and eyes.....1-2 hours a day between the sim and actual flying always helps my brain with that!
06-11-2006 Over year old.
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w.pasman
Elite Veteran
Location: Netherlands

KC

I see the system (human+heli) as a whole, just separating eye and finger and ignoring the rest does not help to become a better pilot. The radio is just one of the parts that can be improved and I think there's something to win here. There are many pilots acknowledging the more direct feel of those faster Tx's. Doesn't that sufficiently show the point?
More technically, IMHO the issue is not merely 2 hours on the sim to compensate latencies. I think this is about maybe 100s of hours. Of course this is hard to separate from the other things you train when working on the sim, but this latency compensation is a "deep" unconscious correction and I think the deeper the correction the harder and longer the training required. And, training for latency compensation will I think involve some kind of "motor program" in the brain that will partially lock out conscious control. That's why "more direct" is felt as "more in control". This might be why so many people are "stirring sticks" to do piroflips. And I think I can make up some more arguments against training to compensate for slow radios.

Maybe you mean that there are other sources of latency, mechanically or electronically. Well if I can correct it on "hardware level" with a reasonable investment, I will do. Please point me out them!
06-11-2006 Over year old.
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KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

I hear ya

It does take about a hundred hours to get really connected with a new airframe or a radio if you are maxing things out, I know, I have over 4000 hours as of last check ( I keep tabs by the number of times the clock on the radio ticks over)

one of the easiest ways anyone can speed up their control delay is to reverse the expos.

the other trick to reduce a latency is by harder dampeners

you probably did the dampeners, but most people forget to try the expos.
06-11-2006 Over year old.
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Tday
Key Veteran
Location: Needham, MA

JKos,

My experience was exactly the same as yours in going from the 9C to the Stylus. Pretty remarkable. There are plenty of examples of where you notice it, but it's particularly easy to see when you're bringing things in to cut the grass---the control loop is so fast that you can cut the distance by a lot.

Tom

2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
06-12-2006 Over year old.
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Main Discussion > Radio internals photos requested
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