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e-Align T-REX 450-500-600 > Align screwed the pooch with the Rex 600.
 
 
kookboy
Key Veteran
Location: Vancouver, BC -up north and Seattle, WA down south

Heliboy

Quote 
as I'm sure they are aware that while they may attract some beginner, a 600 size will mostly be geared for experienced flyers.


I can tell you one thing I know.

I work for a large company which is located right beside an electric flying club.

This allows for a large amount of beginners to enter the hobby.

The T-Rex 450 is pretty much in every flyer's house here.

47 people I know personally have pre-ordered the T-Rex 600.

They all own Trex 450's and I'll let you know something.

42 of them are beginner's and roughly half of them can barely do a standard circuit.

They all gawked at the smoothness of Alan's flying in the Rex 600 videos.

They have money. Pre-ordered it with all the electronics and $$$'s on batteries.

A few of them are close friends and they just see the Rex 600 just as they see their Rex 450, just bigger.

Do a search, ask around and you will find out that 'most' of the pre-orders are taken from customers who currently own a T-Rex 450 and large part of them are in fact beginner to intermediate flyers.

Yes, once they get it and spool it up, they'll be blown away, but they will still spool it up in their little yard or even some ignorant one's will do it in their living room or garage. Just from the experience they have of the Rex 450.

You have to understand that the Rex 450 blew the market away and landed in the hands of people who have never flown but have seen the ad's, video's all because of the internet exposure.

Now you have these people and their friends, etc... who 'want' the Rex 600.

The ratio to the teacher/instructor/flying clubs/experienced flyers to the beginner/novice flyer from their backyard is very far from 1:1.

It's very simple.

Align T-Rex 450 were targeted for beginner to advanced flyers for small area's.

The Rex 600 is targeting their current Rex 450 customer base. Align does not care whether it's a pro/expert or a beginner/novice buying their product.

This is where the experienced people including the manufacturer's and the distributor/hobby shop's should let loose a fury of safety guidelines for this heli as it is targeted to Align's 450 base which consists of a large group of beginners.

I've said it before, I've seen a beginner take a Rex 450 and had the heli flying towards him, so he literally just dropped on the ground and the heli flew over him and crashed. Had this been the Rex 600, half his body would be shredded. He ordered the Rex 600 and has maybe 2 hours of flight time under his belt.

You might say, hey kook, he's only one person.

Well, I know more of them. And I'm sure you guys do too.

A lot of naive/new flyers will buy this product and treat it like their Rex 450.

I don't really care if anyone says otherwise, because I'm seeing this first hand at work and around me.

With that said, I want one and will probably grab one once they are through wrigging out the V1.

... But honey it was only $$$
05-23-2006 07:32 AM
 
 
rockier
Key Veteran
Location: Las Vegas

I would like to know why it is a great move for Thunder Tiger to come out with a 50 size electric heli and not for Align or any other company.

Do not use the reason that just because they came out with a Trex-450 or mini heli first. That does not fly with me.

If the market is right to come out with a 50 size electric now then any company that does not go for it now is dumb.

SO LET ALL THE COMPANIES GIVE ME GREAT CHOOSES.

--

------,\\\|///,-----
___*| # # |*
oo0---(_)---0oo
05-23-2006 07:32 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
kookboy
Key Veteran
Location: Vancouver, BC -up north and Seattle, WA down south

Quote 
I would like to know why it is a great move for Thunder Tiger to come out with a 50 size electric heli and not for Align or any other company.


I think it's great they came out with it. They should've done it long ago.

I just hate the fact that a sh*tload of people that I know will buy this with the belief that it is no different to fly than their Rex 450's.

Many of them don't even know about these forums, nor about the flying clubs and they just fly in their backyard or at our local parks with people around.

My issue is with the lack of differentiation between the Rex 450 and the 600 and this is not being addressed anywhere to my knowledge, be it on forums or on advertising/LHS's/etc...

... But honey it was only $$$
05-23-2006 07:41 AM
 
 
KevinR
Veteran
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

Quote 
I just hate the fact that a sh*tload of people that I know will buy this with the belief that it is no different to fly than their Rex 450's.


Just like all the people who bought Swifts with the belief it is no different to fly than their Hummingbirds
05-23-2006 08:20 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
spork
Veteran
Location: Mountain View, CA

Quote 
I just hate the fact that a sh*tload of people that I know will buy this with the belief that it is no different to fly than their Rex 450's.


Far and away the best advice I've ever got... "nothing is ever as good or bad as it seems"

It'll all work itself out. Let's all take a deep breath.
05-23-2006 08:25 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Gazzer
Veteran
Location: Hope Valley, UK

rdlohr
Quote 
In the parks I fly in, noise is a factor...
While I don't doubt noise could be an issue if you have local laws and regulations but on a flying field big enough for a 50class heli is noise level on the perimeter of the field that much different? If it's because there are homes adjoining the park or people in the park then it suggests that is not the correct location for the Trex 600 anyway

kookboy
Quote 
47 people I know personally have pre-ordered the T-Rex 600.
They all own Trex 450's and I'll let you know something.
42 of them are beginner's and roughly half of them can barely do a standard circuit.

But I wonder if the 42 beginners have really made an informed choice. When they have to start going to proper flying fields to use their heli's and see what the guys are doing with the nitro's and see all the dissadvantages of having a 50size e-heli.....me wonders if they will think they made a mistake

rockier
Quote 
I would like to know why it is a great move for Thunder Tiger to come out with a 50 size electric heli and not for Align or any other company.

Do not use the reason that just because they came out with a Trex-450 or mini heli first. That does not fly with me.

If the market is right to come out with a 50 size electric now then any company that does not go for it now is dumb.


From Thunder Tigers point of view..... why not? They already have the helicopter.... for them the conversion to electric is so easy...nothing new at all really. I have no doubt they saw Align coming out with a 50 class so, why let them have it there own way. The difference for Align is that they will have had to invest serious amounts of money in this heli, they need big sales just to break even, I would think TT would be happy with a few 1000 a year!


Heliboy1100
Quote 
So you may have gone to a Trex to fly in areas where you can't fly your Raptor 30. But for the same reason I would get a Trex 600, to fly at my local field because my Trex 450XL is too small. You DON'T buy a 600 to fly in a confined area electric or not.

Exactly my point, I think you really understand what few Trex600 fans seem willing to admit. The 600 is a new breed....something your gonna have to fly down at the local flying club. My point is therefore, what advantage the Trex 600? Why not a 50 nitro, enjoy the noise & the smell and have something that's gonna be a more flexible in terms of flying times and flights per day, without the worry of exploding and expensive LiPo's and probably most important of all, you can choose a helicopter with a proven track record, no matter its from TT, Hirobo, JR. The point is Align are now going head to head with the big boys......I think their gonna find it an extremely tough market!

Quote 
As far as Nitro vs. Battery. This I admit to be a little biased on. I live in a rural city, where the closest hobby shop is over 100 miles away. And they don't know much about helis. So nitro is far too much of a consumable compared to nitro for me. Plus again if the argument is made that Trex fan will be lured to the 600, I'm assuming that just like mw they already have the necessary chargers and such for electric flight. So why switch to nitro now. The tech for electric is now such that it is very close to rivaling nitro, is my understanding.

Very good point, if the fuel is not available then you don't have much choice. While having chargers etc is valid I wonder if when people start doing that math to work out how much there going to spend on batteries etc if the cost of a charger is significant, anyway you would still need a charger for the receiver battery

oldboldpilot
Quote 
There must be a huge 50 sized electric market. Just look at the new high-end entries..Mini-Joker and Miniature Aircraft 50. And there already is the Logo 14 carbon, king of the hill right now.

Lots of folks have a lot of money, and, by the end of summer, they will have some really nice new toys to play with

You also have the Raptor 50 electric conversion vying for a piece of the overall market, and now also here comes Align.

Sounds to me as if there is a market in the thousands for 50 sized electrics..

Well this is where I think your wrong. E-helis are not new, some have been around for years others more recent. Granted maybe not 50 class but what was wrong with a 30 class e-heli. Why have we not seen more larger e-heli's at the flying fields allready, where are all the Logo 14's? Especially given that you claim price is no object! If you look at the companies that are producing exclusively e-heli's they tend to be smaller, 'less well known', that could be for a very good reason! To me Align is gonna be looking for volume sales, particularily if they are going to sell the kit at lower prices. Here's where I think they have made a mistake, not that the heli will be crap, not that there is no market, not that some people will not buy for all sorts of reasons, but when I hear the arguement I gonna but a Trex 600 because my 450 is great.... well I doubt very much their going to be singing the same song 6months down the line. Again all IMHO.

Sorry guys.... i can feel the headaches starting again.....I just find this whole topic very interesting:
05-23-2006 08:39 AM
 
 
Onawing
Heliman
Location: Honolulu, HI

Gazzer,

While larger e-helis have been around for years, their popularity was limited due to prevailing battery tech. Remember those 30 cell stick packs, which by the way you had to assemble yourself!

Lipos changed all that. And the prices of high power packs continue to decline with new formats such as emolies. The 30+ e-heli class is a primary beneficiary of the new battery tech, and Align (as well as other manufacturers) knows it. That's why we are seeing the 600, alongside the MA50, e-Raptor kits, etc. This is a strategic move into a (re)emerging market niche.

I happen to agree with your opinion that we are going to see a lot more larger helis flying "wild" where they do not belong. Low-time (or no-time) pilots at the controls of a 30+ size e-heli need to understand that this machine can kill if it hits someone, whether as a result of pilot error or mechanical/radio failure.

And so the bottom line is that along with that big e-heli comes an equally weighty responsibility if anything goes wrong.
05-23-2006 10:03 AM
 
 
Grant H
Key Veteran
Location: Maryland

Quote 
prefer electric over nitro because of the mess, noise and equipment needed to fly (fuel, starter etc...)


Lets touch on this "equiptment needed to fly statement"

Ok. With a nitro, you will need fueling and a starter and a glow plug warmer.

With a 50 sized electric you will need a high grade charger, probably something more than $200 worth for these large cell batteries, next you will need a balancer ($50-100) and finally, if you expect to fly and charge at the field you will need some huge deep cycle batteries. More equiptment, I think not, Just a different kind that will cost more.

Quote 
Plus electric is just a cool changing technology that I enjoy as a hobby.



I do agree with this statement though. There is always something new to try with the electric side of the house and that is great.

Quote 
Grant please forgive my ignorance, but don't know what a .15 size heli is


An example of a .15 sized electric heli would be the new Hirobo Lepton. It swings 425mm blades.

Quote 
Align is just making it more accessible to those of us who otherwise might not consider it.


Not really. Its been there for a while.

Quote 
47 people I know personally have pre-ordered the T-Rex 600.

They all own Trex 450's and I'll let you know something.

42 of them are beginner's and roughly half of them can barely do a standard circuit.


Quote 
I just hate the fact that a sh*tload of people that I know will buy this with the belief that it is no different to fly than their Rex 450's.


Yep.. Many people are automatically going to jump on the 600 because they think its the next size up and treat it like their dinky 450.

Quote 
A few of them are close friends and they just see the Rex 600 just as they see their Rex 450, just bigger.
\

Also the point I am trying to make.

Quote 
Yes, once they get it and spool it up, they'll be blown away, but they will still spool it up in their little yard or even some ignorant one's will do it in their living room or garage. Just from the experience they have of the Rex 450.


Also the point I am trying to make.

Quote 
I think you really understand what few Trex600 fans seem willing to admit. The 600 is a new breed, something your gonna have to fly down at the local flying club


Agree..


Mark my words, we will see vidoes of idiots flying these 600s in their backyards, front yards, streets and turning them up in their garages.
05-23-2006 10:07 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
bugsb
Veteran
Location: rothwell//northants UK

it has been interesting reading this thread with its pro's and con's
for me it is the outlay of a charger at least 4 li-po packs and no one seems to know the price of spare's
yes i got fed up with taking of the canopy to fly so in the end i under slung the li-po packs on the 450 trex
the new breed of 30-50 size electric heli for the main stream flyers it will be out of there reach
that is why i have sat back to see what will happen this year
and it seems that the swift will end up being the winner in price and spares
most heli flyers fly the 30-50 glow above that thay cannot afford it me for one
with the trex600 and the ERaptor they have gone into the higher market the swift has stayed below it
so it will be interesting to see what happens over the rest of the year
but the way forward is electric and in 2-3 years time i think many more will turn from glow to electric as the battery packs get cheaper
Ron
05-23-2006 10:29 AM
 
 
Gazzer
Veteran
Location: Hope Valley, UK

Onawing
Quote 
While larger e-helis have been around for years, their popularity was limited due to prevailing battery tech. Remember those 30 cell stick packs, which by the way you had to assemble yourself!

Lipos changed all that. And the prices of high power packs continue to decline with new formats such as emolies. The 30+ e-heli class is a primary beneficiary of the new battery tech, and Align (as well as other manufacturers) knows it. That's why we are seeing the 600, alongside the MA50, e-Raptor kits, etc. This is a strategic move into a (re)emerging market niche.


Yes you are correct. Our LHS has a few older model helis sitting on the shelf with HUGE multi cell packs . I think your explanation of a re-emerging market is a good arguement given the changes in battery technology!

If i quote from another thread posted by kookboy
Quote 
Think ahead and prepare for a 6S3P - 10S2P 4200 + for 6-10mins of safe 3D which will run you between $450 - $550.

Now I have no idea on the accuracy of this statement, I have not done my home work so shoot me down if I'm wrong. I am also not familiar with the emoli cells being discussed. With batteries still costing this much do we really see this class of heli flying of the shelves? I can accept that the prices will continue to fall, but with the Trex 600 due to hit the stores soon these prices are still valid! How many cells would you realistically need for a days flying?
05-23-2006 10:34 AM
 
 
rdlohr
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsfield. MA USA

My predictions:

Quote 
Align screwed the pooch with the Rex 600

Disagree, Align will make tons of money as battery prices drop.

Quote 
The 600 is gonna kill someone

Unfortunately true. Its up to us to help train people to respect them.


-#-> Still Flyin, crashin and lovin it!
05-23-2006 10:57 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Gazzer
Veteran
Location: Hope Valley, UK

Quote 
Disagree, Align will make tons of money as battery prices drop


Wish you could explain to us why
05-23-2006 11:17 AM
 
 
Gazzer
Veteran
Location: Hope Valley, UK

Quote 
In the parks I fly in, noise is a factor...


Why
05-23-2006 11:20 AM
 
 
Onawing
Heliman
Location: Honolulu, HI

If I were selling the 600 at the LHS, I would put it this way:

"Nitro costs an average of $23 per gallon, and you get 12 flights. So your average nitro heli costs about $2 per flight. The same size e-heli makes 500 flights on these here Lipos, which cost $250. That's 50 cents per flight. You'll need a second set to fly all day, but still your cost per flight is still half that of the nitro heli."

I doubt whether that heli will ever make the 500 flight mark. But hey, people justify buying those hybrid cars using the exact same logic - pay $4,000+ up front to save a percentage in fuel costs over the time period they own the car.
05-23-2006 11:21 AM
 
 
rdlohr
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsfield. MA USA

Quote 
Wish you could explain to us why

Look at the interest in this bird and its not even available yet. They will sell. Align's formula, whether we agree with it or not, works.

Battery prices will drop. History has proven that.

Quote 
In the parks I fly in, noise is a factor...
Why

This may be my ignorance. I fly in a park that is two ball fields side by side with residential housing behind it. I thought that was big enough for a 600. Am I wrong here?


-#-> Still Flyin, crashin and lovin it!
05-23-2006 11:33 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Gazzer
Veteran
Location: Hope Valley, UK

Quote 
If I were selling the 600 at the LHS, I would put it this way:

"Nitro costs an average of $23 per gallon, and you get 12 flights. So your average nitro heli costs about $2 per flight. The same size e-heli makes 500 flights on these here Lipos, which cost $250. That's 50 cents per flight. You'll need a second set to fly all day, but still your cost per flight is still half that of the nitro heli."
Is that for real..... 500 cycles and batteries are US$250? I've just screwed one of my Lipo's after only 10 cycles by discharging too much

But really is two batteries enough? Assuming you can only charge 1C which basically means 1hr to charge which means after the first two flights in quick succesion you have then one hour between each flight or if you had dual charging capability two flights after every hour..... I think Maybe three would be the perfect solution?
05-23-2006 11:35 AM
 
 
Gazzer
Veteran
Location: Hope Valley, UK

Quote 
Look at the interest in this bird and its not even available yet. They will sell. Align's formula, whether we agree with it or not, works.


Well I see a hell of a lot of interest in this Align forum Maybe of course that is to be expected. Really few if any have seen the Trex 600 'hands on' yet everyome here claims to be confirmed buyers with orders placed..... it just all seems a bit irrational to me. If I may ask you a question. I think on your earlier post you stated that you would be buying a Trex600. Would you consider the new TT e-50 instead? If not why not? Given it's from a very well known manufacturer of the most popular nitro heli in the history of nitro helis.....is it worth to consider?

Quote 
I fly in a park that is two ball fields side by side with residential housing behind it. I thought that was big enough for a 600. Am I wrong here?


A space of that size would seem to me to be perfect for flying any size of heli It's the word 'park' that causes me to pause becuase park and public often go together but the general public and large RC heli's really are not a good mix. I don't mean to pull your chain, where your flying is probably a big area with no folks, dogs or anything else to get in your way, thats cool. I just wish to hell we had such a space like that in Shanghai....yeah I'm jealous No matter where you turn....people people people
05-23-2006 12:04 PM
 
 
rdlohr
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsfield. MA USA

Another thought:

Battery prices will continue to drop for a given amount of power. Which direction has Nitro been going, and which direction do you expect it to go...


-#-> Still Flyin, crashin and lovin it!
05-23-2006 12:07 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rdlohr
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsfield. MA USA

Quote 
If I may ask you a question. I think on your earlier post you stated that you would be buying a Trex600

That wasn't me. When I am ready for a bigger machine, I'll consider the TT e-50 and every electric on the market. Not sure if Align will win my dollars.

Quote 
I don't mean to pull your chain,

No problem. Intelligent conversation is why I come here! I've enjoyed this thread.


-#-> Still Flyin, crashin and lovin it!
05-23-2006 12:12 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Grant H
Key Veteran
Location: Maryland

Quote 
I fly in a park that is two ball fields side by side with residential housing behind it. I thought that was big enough for a 600. Am I wrong here?



A park might not be the greatest place for one of these. Too many times have I been flying my Rex in a part to have a kid right across the park on a bike or similar, only to have to land and wait for the all clear again.

You should not be flying this sized a/c in any type of situtation where people may come into contact with. You really need to be flying the 600 at a deciated flying field or somewhere out in the country where no one is bound to come running across the field to see whats going on.
05-23-2006 12:14 PM
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CanoMod . Futaba-RC . A Main Hobbies

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e-Align T-REX 450-500-600 > Align screwed the pooch with the Rex 600.
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