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Thunder Power RC . Real Raptors . Mikado Modellhubschrauber

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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > What gets more flight time per dollar, electric or gas?
 
 
GimbalFan
Elite Veteran
Location: Copter County, Nv

Quote 
If everything is >90% same, what makes nitro more crash proof than an electric ?

No one is saying a Nitro heli is more crash proof -- but if you crash and total a nitro you're not killing a $200 battery along with everything else!

With nitro you're only carrying $2 worth of fuel at a time. With LiPo you're carrying $200 worth of fuel every time you fly, at least for the 50-sized ones.

EDIT -- I see what's happening. Our language difference is the key. In the quote above, by 'more crash proof' you really mean 'less crash costly', right?

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
vic88my
Heliman
Location: Malaysia

How much does the crash of a Raptor 50 smashing to the ground from 20 feet high costs compare to a Trex 600 falling from the same height ?

Do both have the same degree of damage ?
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
GimbalFan
Elite Veteran
Location: Copter County, Nv

Can't really be compared on paper, Vic. Every crash is different, even with identical birds. Best calculation for answering that question would be to add up the total cost of each bird and then check your available CC balance.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
vic88my
Heliman
Location: Malaysia

Based on experience and statistics, for the same situation mentioned,
nitro or electric will cost more ?
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
GimbalFan
Elite Veteran
Location: Copter County, Nv

You're pressing for an answer to a question with too many variables. Crash on grass and the lipo bird may cost less cuz the lipo is more likely to survive. Crash on pavement and now that lipo is probably dead. As you're surely beginning to see, it's difficult to have a conclusive answer to such questions.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
vic88my
Heliman
Location: Malaysia

1. Firstly, let's exclude battery from one of the variable,
which one costs more from the same crash scenario of 20 feet or higher smash to the ground ?

2. Secondly, Is there no way / alternative to crash-proof the battery with the technology nowadays ? what about sponge it or strategically relocate it ?
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
GimbalFan
Elite Veteran
Location: Copter County, Nv

By the time you've finished protecting a lipo enough to cover all the variables that are at play during a crash your bird will probably be too unwieldy and bulky to be fun to fly, which in itself will make it more likely to crash. Lipos get hot too, so foaming 'em up will make 'em get hotter.

My best answer for you is -- crash more than once every 100 flights and nitro is likely to be least expensive. Crash less than once every 100 and lipo is likely to be least expensive. Past those guestimates I cannot be more precise. Others will surely jump in to help who have more experience than I.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
bradraptor30
Senior Heliman
Location: SOUTH CAROLINA

my two cents is electric. but definitly go with sim first. If your at all worried about money, you will save a TON with a Simulator.
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
GimbalFan
Elite Veteran
Location: Copter County, Nv

Yep. The simulator is the best advice yet. Attempt NO maneuvers with your helis that you cannot first do without hesitation on the sim.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
03-15-2007 Over year old.
 
 
ShaneAllen
Heliman
Location: Irving, TX

I feel I must chime in here. Not looking at crash cost, or at least assuming they may be comparable, For me, nitro cost less.
The reason is fuel cost and flight time.
It is true charging the batteries on electric cost less, but you also have to factor in the cost of the batteries themselves.
I purchase fuel for $14 a gallon. I get 12 flights per gallon, ten minute flights. I also like to fly 4 to 7 times a day. In order to get that # of flights in a day, I would have to have 3 battery packs and maybe a couple chargers.
Now the math part:
Nitro: 1 gallon = 120 minutes flight time @ $15

Eletric: 1 pack should get 100 to 200 charges (we will assume 200)
Each flight is about 6 minutes but I'll assume 8 here.
1 pack at $250 will provide 1600 minutes of flight time
3 packs will cost $750 and provide 4800 minutes of flight time.

To do this with Nitro it would take 40 gallons and cost $600
(Someone should probalby check my math....)


So for me, besides having longer flight times and not having to charge as often, the cost is still better to run Nitro (80% the cost of electric.)

Other costs that I believe offset each other between the two:
motors, chargers, glow plugs, cost of electricity, trips to hobby store for fuel, starters, speed controllers, etc.

That's my .2 cents and will still fly my raptor 50 and keep smiling while I am doing it....
03-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Old Red
Senior Heliman
Location: Borrego, California

Quote 
That is a big difference of 1680 dollars savings per year !!

You're missing a lot of cost here...

To fly that much you'll need at least 3 packs

Your 5 flights a day only total the time of 2 flights with Nitro, so cut nitro cost more than 1/2.

I have motors that have gone 100 gallons no problem, at your flight rate you'll need 3 new Lipos every 18 months

If you don't pile it in sooner and frag a 200-300 dollar pack...

Many run 15% or YS 20/20 at almost 1/2 the cost as well...

I've been flying electric since 1999, nitro since 1980. Electric has always eaten away more at the wallet...

Red
03-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
vic88my
Heliman
Location: Malaysia

[quote]
Eletric: 1 pack should get 100 to 200 charges (we will assume 200)
Each flight is about 6 minutes but I'll assume 8 here.
1 pack at $250 will provide 1600 minutes of flight time
3 packs will cost $750 and provide 4800 minutes of flight time.
To do this with Nitro it would take 40 gallons and cost $600

Today, 1 pack of battery costs $160.00 and not $250.00.
3 packs of battery will thus cost $480.00, which is $120.00 or 25% cheaper than $600.00 of nitro.
03-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
GimbalFan
Elite Veteran
Location: Copter County, Nv

Vic, you're already sold on lipo-powered RC helis. Good choice. Buy, fly, fly!



op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
03-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
firefox
Senior Heliman
Location: Thailand

Vic, you wanted an unbiased opinion. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. People are biased, whether they realize it or not. I gave my own experience with nitros and electrics (and I started with nitro) and my friend's experience (and he started with electric), and that's about as close as you can get.

My experience actually was between small electrics and medium nitros, which is not a fair comparison (for either, cost for one, stability for the other). However, this is what has been traditionally compared : Get a T-rex 450 or a Nitro?

These days you have the mass production of medium electric kits. So electrics now have the stability of nitros... but their cost goes way up too. For a nitro, there's only the engine and the fuel, for the electric there's three components, the motor, ESC, and battery (and a $$$ charger that can handle high voltage packs). Yes, you can go cheap (like you say $160, which is likely a middling 6S pack) on any of these components, but you won't get satisfactory performance. For nitro, you can also use cheap fuel, with 0% nitro. You know how much that costs? Around $5 a gallon. A lot of people in my country use this, and they can fly pretty well with it. If anyone wants to do a numerical comparison between the two, try to keep the relative costs comparable, too. Let's not compare say, a cheapo motor+ESC+battery combo with say a 50 Hyper on 30% nitro. Let's also keep in mind that lipos will rarely last more than 100 flights, if that. They usually will fail, lose power, crash, or whatever.
03-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
vic88my
Heliman
Location: Malaysia

Unbiased opinion requires many years of experience, trying many models,
huge expertise, talented, no stereotyping, specialised knowledge, extensive brainstorming, critical thinkings and knowledge sharing, only then, will good opinions and viewpoints been generalised into standards that everyone can follow as a guidance. That is what differentiate eg, a good theory and a bad theory or a good philosopher vs a bad philosopher.
A good philosopher has macro viewpoints whereas a bad philosopher tells lies and rubbish with narrow mind.

This is a good forum for brainstorming and knowledge sharing.
Keep up the good work.

Cheers.
03-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
dday27
Heliman
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Nitro by far, 7 to 8 minutes hard 3d on batteries

Raptor 50SE, Spektrum DX7
03-16-2007 Over year old.
 
 
vic88my
Heliman
Location: Malaysia

Another point to ponder:

I have seen quite a number of engine failures in mid air 20 feet above
causing damages.

For example :

http://www.private-aircraft.biz/for...er=asc&start=20

It wards me off to start in nitro.
03-17-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Willie 300S
Senior Heliman
Location: Birmingham, Al, USA

Last year I speen $150 on 3 Trex 450SE batteries that only lasted about 8 months.
So when I moved up to a 50 size I carefully considered the Trex 600 but went for a Titan. I figure I'm at least $600 ahead at this point.
Some day I'm sure that electrics will be the way to go but for now they don't make sense for larger machines.
03-17-2007 Over year old.
 
 
Tday
Key Veteran
Location: Needham, MA

this is an interesting question and the thread shows the many variables. Context is everything on this one. My Lepton 4S flies as well as my 90 sized nitro...huge power to weight, very steady and stable, incredibly able. (and yes, I've really maxed out this 90---it flies beautifully) In that context, I *think* my Lepton is quite a bit less expensive---but then again, I've not toasted a lipo. 100 flights is about $1.60 in battery cost per 8 minute hard 3D flight. My nitro gets 10.5 minutes per flight at ~6 flights per gallon at $18 per 30% gallon.

I do think there's more maintenance costs associated with nitros as well...governor sensors, glow plugs, remote glow adaptors, motor bearings, piston rings...and require more twiddling for sure.

But this is to say each of us will make a different calculation since what we think of as equivalent is likely different. I like the electric power to weight in the 500 size---and that's what drove my decision.

Tom

2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
03-17-2007 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
firefox
Senior Heliman
Location: Thailand

Again, I think that the only really meaningful cost comparison would be between helis of similar size and similar performance. Really, no-one would allow you to compare a Raptor 30's fuel cost/economy on 0% nitro fuel with a Raptor 90 on 30% nitro with a Hyper. It's a different class, with different performance, there's no comparison to be made. Just like you wouldn't compare the fuel economy of your VW Beetle (the original) with a F-1.
03-17-2007 Over year old.
 
 
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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > What gets more flight time per dollar, electric or gas?
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