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E-flite . Next D . Fast Lad Performance

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > motor speed oscillation
 
 
akshaw
Senior Heliman
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA

Hi All,
I'm wondering why my heli flew fine for the first 6 minutes or so this morning and then, after putting it into a hard turn, the motor oscillated between fast and slow about every 1/2 second? This caused the tail to push to the left and then back again repeatedly up until I landed it. Anything to do with the esc? Has anyone else ever experienced this?
04-26-2006 Over year old.
 
 
TomRex
Elite Veteran
Location: West Palm Beach Fl.

Sounds like the low voltage cutoff hit ya

The AMA is way better than what you belong to!
04-26-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
akshaw
Senior Heliman
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA

Thanks. I was kinda thinking that was what it was, but I have no experience with how escs cause the heli to behave at low voltage cutoff. The only other heli I've flown is a Honeybee.
04-26-2006 Over year old.
 
 
TomRex
Elite Veteran
Location: West Palm Beach Fl.

Yea the Align esc's lvc has a lot to be desired. I prefer the ones that have a smoothe power down cycle instead of that herky jerky ka ka that the stock esc has.

The AMA is way better than what you belong to!
04-26-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
TonyTypeS
Key Veteran
Location: New Orleans, LA

Make sure your not in Gov mode. If you plug your battery in and let it sit there the esc should make a tone. The 4th beep should only have 2 beeps. 3 beeps means you are in Gove mode. I was having trouble with my motor and tail and thought I had a bad Rx. Found out it was the ESC programming all along. Thanks to the Finless vid.
BTW I am using the align ESC

Must have more POWER!
Avant FX
Fueled by addiction
04-27-2006 Over year old.
 
 
akshaw
Senior Heliman
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA

Thanks guys. Yes my esc is the 35A Align esc. I'm definitely not in governer mode. I was having a tail wag a few days ago and when I switched to soft start and reduced the gain on my radio that seemed to solve the problem. I'm pretty sure I had flown for about 6-8 minutes before the oscillation started, and it started after a tight turn which I could tell must have pulled some extra amps from the battery, so I guess it must be what TomRex had mentioned. I didn't realize Align escs have the voltage cuttoff feature, so i had installed a hrpoly lipo alarm which didn't go off before the oscillation. The hrpoly is set to 80% whereas voltage cutoff on the esc is set to 65%. Actually, I would prefer the hrpoly audio alarm rather than the back and forth motion of the tail.

Finless: Since I'm a beginner with the trex, I have unplugged and plugged on the same pack repeatedly, but didn't notice any change in the programming. Same sequence of beeps each time I plugged it in. I am running a external BEC.

EDIT: To be on the safe side, I'll follow what you are saying about plugging and unplugging.
04-27-2006 Over year old.
 
 
akshaw
Senior Heliman
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA

Hey wait a minute. I just read a post about low voltage cutoff on the align esc.
http://runryder.com/helicopter/t232725p1/
So it doesn't make sense that I hit the low voltage cutoff since my lipo alarm is set to 9V which is 80%. It should go off before the esc low voltage cutoff kicks in. And I know the hrpoly works because I tested it a few days ago. So i wonder is there is anything else that might cause the motor to do that?
04-27-2006 Over year old.
 
 
akshaw
Senior Heliman
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA

Now I know why the low voltage cutoff kicked in and the hrpoly-x alarm didn't go off. Simple. The piezo electric alarm was busted from a previous crash! One of the wires that was soldered to it had broken underneath the shrink wrap, so it wasn't even noticable. So now I've learned a lesson. Thanks again everyone for your input.
Regards,
--Anthony
04-28-2006 Over year old.
 
 
Uplink Tom
Senior Heliman
Location: Boyertown PA

I did a search on "Align ESC wag" and finally found this explaining why I get a motor pulse and tail wag after hovering for a few minutes. Damn I'm happy I found out!!!.

But now my question is why am I only getting around 3 minutes hovering time on my B400 until it reaches lvc. Is it head speed? I guess I'm running too low.
As soon as the wag starts I take the pack out and it measures 10.0V no load.
I'm using TP and Kong packs between 2100 and 2250, GY401 and S9257, Align ESC, and stock otherwise.

Tom
09-25-2008 03:47 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
helicraze
Key Veteran
Location: Victoria - Australia

10V no load on 3S is too low, I stop when my lipos show 11.1V under no load.
09-26-2008 12:35 AM
 
 
gary jp4
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Uplink Tom
Quote 
I did a search on "Align ESC wag" and finally found this explaining why I get a motor pulse and tail wag after hovering for a few minutes. Damn I'm happy I found out!!!.

But now my question is why am I only getting around 3 minutes hovering time on my B400 until it reaches lvc. Is it head speed? I guess I'm running too low.
As soon as the wag starts I take the pack out and it measures 10.0V no load.
I'm using TP and Kong packs between 2100 and 2250, GY401 and S9257, Align ESC, and stock otherwise.

Tom
Sounds like your pack is shot or the heli is drawing a bigger then normal load for some reason (like friction on the system). How many amps are you putting back in the pack when you charge it?

Yes, 10v no load is too low. I don't recommend using no load pack voltage at all as a reference because the voltage starts climbing immediately after removing from load and continues to climb so voltage changes with time. It is not reliable and can be quite a bit higher then it was under load. What ever it is it was lower when it was in use. 9 volts is the minimum the pack should ever hit so it is a little low for an alarm setting. When it goes off you can't stop immediately. If it goes off in hover it will then continue to go lower until you land and if you pump the collective a little on landing etc. it goes even lower still. Then you battery is permanently damaged reducing the capacity. Most set an alarm to 9.3 or higher.

The ESC LVC set to 65% is way to low too to use as a cut off or even a back up. Sounds like you are toasting all your packs. That is probably why they only last 3 minutes. I guess that is OK if you have the money. It is good for the economy. I don't like using the ESC LVC to determine when to stop but, if you don't know how much you are putting back in on charge and can't use the 80% rule then get a new charger and set the ESC LVC all the way up until you do.

T-Rex 450 SE V1, 430L 13t, Align 35A ESC, 325 Pro, K&B, JR 6102DX6, GY401, 9650, HS-65MG'S.
09-26-2008 01:45 AM
 
 
gary jp4
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Any setting on the ESC LVC is too low. 60, 65 or 70% are all too low for Lipos. At 70% it will cut a fully charged battery at 8.75-8.82 volts which is already too low to be safe. Saying that you have a battery starting at 12.6 volts is giving the benefit of the doubt as it usually drops a bit lower after coming off charge.
(12.6 volts * 0.7 = 8.82 volts)

At 60% it is 8.19, again assuming you started with 12.6 volts which you didn't so it is going to be lower. That is way to low and definitely in the damage area.

That is still potentially damaging your battery. You should never hit LVC.

T-Rex 450 SE V1, 430L 13t, Align 35A ESC, 325 Pro, K&B, JR 6102DX6, GY401, 9650, HS-65MG'S.
09-26-2008 01:55 AM
 
 
gary jp4
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Forget about the LVC except you might want to set it high (70%) for a back up.

Time your flights. Even if you have a voltage alarm. Know how much you are putting back in on charge. Use the 80% rule.

T-Rex 450 SE V1, 430L 13t, Align 35A ESC, 325 Pro, K&B, JR 6102DX6, GY401, 9650, HS-65MG'S.
09-26-2008 01:59 AM
 
 
gary jp4
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Quote 
I did a search on "Align ESC wag" and finally found this explaining why I get a motor pulse and tail wag after hovering for a few minutes. Damn I'm happy I found out!!!.

But now my question is why am I only getting around 3 minutes hovering time on my B400 until it reaches lvc. Is it head speed? I guess I'm running too low.
As soon as the wag starts I take the pack out and it measures 10.0V no load.
I'm using TP and Kong packs between 2100 and 2250, GY401 and S9257, Align ESC, and stock otherwise.

Tom

Actually all those numbers and the 3 settings were for an Align ESC. It looks like the B400 uses a fixed 9.0v LVC which is better but even that is too low and the same principles apply. Don't use it. It is there for a backup. Even E-Flite says don't depend on it or it will damage your battery.

Here is what your manual says about it.

T-Rex 450 SE V1, 430L 13t, Align 35A ESC, 325 Pro, K&B, JR 6102DX6, GY401, 9650, HS-65MG'S.
09-26-2008 02:14 AM
 
 
gary jp4
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

From the Blade 400 manual.
Quote 
Li-Po cells should not be discharged to below 3V each under load. In the case of the 3S 11.1V Li-Po battery used for the Blade 400 3D, you will not want the voltage of the battery to fall below 9V during flight.

The ESC installed on your model features a soft low voltage cutoff (LVC) that occurs when the battery reaches 9V under load. When the soft cutoff occurs, the ESC will automatically reduce power to the motor (regardless of the power level you have set with the throttle stick/curve) in order to prevent the voltage of the battery from dropping to below 9V. After the power is reduced and the voltage rebounds to above 9V, the ESC will automatically return power to the motor until the battery reaches 9V again. This process will continue to repeat, sometimes causing the motor/power to pulse rapidly, helping to provide a visual and/or audible indication of the low battery voltage. However, in some cases it may be difficult to detect pulsing of the motor/power, so we suggest that you be extremely aware of the power level of the Li-Po battery during flight. If at any time the helicopter begins to require more throttle than typical to maintain hover or flight, or has lost significant power, you must land the helicopter IMMEDIATELY to prevent a sudden loss in power that could result in a crash.

And although the soft LVC of the ESC will help to prevent deep (below 9V; 3V per cell) over-discharge of the battery, it is not recommended that you continue to run the motor for an extended length of time after landing and/or noticing a loss of power. Also, routinely discharging the battery to the soft LVC can still cause permanent damage to the battery, resulting in shortened flight times, loss of power output or failure of the battery entirely. It is recommended that you use the timer function of your transmitter to keep the duration of each flight consistent and to prevent reaching the soft LVC each time you fly.

We suggest an initial timer setting of 4 minutes and 30 seconds. And although it is possible to achieve longer flight durations safely depending on the performance of the battery, flying style of the pilot and other factors, we suggest using this timer setting for the first few flights. You can keep track of the flight duration on subsequent flights and adjust the setting of the timer, as you prefer.

And that is with a 9.0v cut off. So there you go.

All the stuff about using a timer would be even more meaningful if you add the 80% rule and know how much you are putting back in with each charge.

T-Rex 450 SE V1, 430L 13t, Align 35A ESC, 325 Pro, K&B, JR 6102DX6, GY401, 9650, HS-65MG'S.
09-26-2008 02:25 AM
 
 
gary jp4
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

It looks like what I said about voltage percentages is correct for the older RCE-BL35A but not the RCE-BL35G that comes on most (all?) Trex models at this time.

The RCE-BL35G apparently uses actual voltages for LVC. The high setting is 3.2 per cell or 9.6v according to the manual. If you used this setting it should prevent you from damaging you pack. I would still not use the ESC LVC to decide how long to fly. You should not fly until you get LVC.

T-Rex 450 SE V1, 430L 13t, Align 35A ESC, 325 Pro, K&B, JR 6102DX6, GY401, 9650, HS-65MG'S.
09-28-2008 01:02 PM
 
 
Uplink Tom
Senior Heliman
Location: Boyertown PA

I fgured out my short hover times were due to non fully charged imbalanced packs. AstroFlight blinky balancer seemed to make a big improvement. Now after 5 minutes of hover my no load voltage is around 11.5. Using a timer instead of waiting for the esc induced tail wag.

Thanks!
09-28-2008 07:14 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gary jp4
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

You never said what battery charger you are using.

Using the LVC as a basis to determine when to stop, even if you are timing the flight to avoid it but still base on it, is a hap hazard way to go about it. I assume you are doing that because that is all you have to go on as your battery charger doesn't tell you mah's put in on charge. It is better then going into LVC but it would be better to follow the 80% rule.

Get a battery charger that tells you how much you are putting back in (mah's or amp hours). Adjust your times to not put back more then 80% of the pack capacity. Forget about no load voltages.



Also: The Astro Blinky is good but, keep in mind that it discharges your battery if you leave it on after the charge is complete.

T-Rex 450 SE V1, 430L 13t, Align 35A ESC, 325 Pro, K&B, JR 6102DX6, GY401, 9650, HS-65MG'S.
09-29-2008 02:18 PM
 
 
1 page487 viewsPOST REPLY
Ace Hobby . Esprit Model . Thunder Power RC

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > motor speed oscillation
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