RunRyder - Turbine Helis - What's really involved

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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Turbine Helis - What's really involved

pilotError
Key Veteran
Location: Long Island, NY

Ive had a passing interest in a turbine heli, and wanted to find out more about it.

What type of fuel is used, and where do you get it. How much is the fuel, any special storage requirements?

What type of support equipment is needed, any other stuff special to turbine helis?

I'm aware of cost

and the AMA footdragging, what else do I need to know?

Thanks,
Mike...

Good Judgement comes from Experience. Great Judgement comes from Bad Experience.

10-24-2002 Over year old.

Peter Wales
Key Veteran
Location: Orlando Fl

There are 2 types of turbine available for helis. The Jetcat system and the PJ-W system. The PJ-W system is not on sale in the US but can be bought abroad with no problem.

The Jetcat uses belt drive reduction gear, the PJ-W is geared. There are more different options in head speed available with the PW-J. Both will work in either left or right hand rotations.

Fuel is kerosene with turbine oil mixed in. They are both thirsty power plants and the consumption depends on the style of flying and the weight of the model just like glow motors. Both systems run low head speeds designed for scale applications. All of my Jetcats run 1250 rpm and my PJ-W runs 950.

Both are push button start and stop, need a fill of propane/butane mix from a coleman gas cylinder to run up and switch over to kerosene automatically. Cool down is automatic too. Service interval is 25 hours.

Fuel can be left in the tank and the engine and shut off valves are adviseable.

Other than that, they sound and smell great. I love mine, check out my web page for descriptions on build up of 3 of them.

Peter Wales

10-24-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

and what,,,

7000 or 8000 bucks ??

Jim

10-24-2002 Over year old.

corey11
Elite Veteran
Location: Bay Area, California

whats really involved is ONLY about 8000 bucks. prety cheap price for a flying electron that could crash at ANY moment..............never thought of it that way.....did you

10-24-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Peter Wales
Key Veteran
Location: Orlando Fl

They both cost about $4500. Neither of them are designed to fly in such a manner as to cause you to crash and wreck the engine. Maybe they will come out with a 3D version one day and then we will see some really expensive crashes. Until then, I am quite happy to cruise mine around smooth and slow and laugh as the guys with their antique buzzy little motors, smokin away, sucking up $20 a gallon fuel, flip and flop around trying to look like they know what they are doing

Graupner has a very nice scale heli kit in the NH90 using the Jetcat. Vario has a couple, the EC135 and a 500E I think it is.

Peter Wales

10-24-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

heliman41
Key Veteran
Location: Valparaiso IN. USA

I dont see the point of owning something that the AMA wont cover, I mean if one cant operate and fly it at the local funflys why even bother?
Unless one enjoys flying alone thats no fun. Has the AMA started to cover turbines or do you just have so much cash that AMA isnt needed anyway and you just post a bond or something? You can do that IF you have that kind of infinite funds. Just curious.....................

10-24-2002 Over year old.

pilotError
Key Veteran
Location: Long Island, NY

Guys,

I really didn't want the lemming discussions, as I know about the cost and the AMA. The AMA will come around eventually, and I really don't care about the funfly issue. I'm looking to fly it, not show off to my friends how much money I can spend on a heli.

For a scale heli, the cost is not all that far out of line. It's certainly more, but look what your getting for your money in the electronics, auto start, etc.

Peter, I do follow the discussions on RCWatch and have been to your site. That Lama is really something to see. I'd like to see a production kit for that, as I don't really have the talent or the tools to put something like that together from scratch.

Is the fuel special or hard to get? What does it cost to purchase the fuel? I gather by your $20/gallon comment that it isn't all that expensive. I was hoping there were no special fuel storage requirements, other than having an extinguisher close by at all times.

Is there a service clock (for lack of a better term) built in to tell you how many hours you have on it?

What get's serviced every 25 hours? Bearings, drive shaft, ???

Thanks,

Mike...

Good Judgement comes from Experience. Great Judgement comes from Bad Experience.

10-24-2002 Over year old.

heliman41
Key Veteran
Location: Valparaiso IN. USA

PilotError,
I understand your thoughts but saying:"the AMA will come around eventually", could be a gamble. Remember Turbine jets are flown at a distance for the most part and at a good altitude. Helis, especially scalers are flown upclose an personal. That sort of flying style is what the AMA is concerned about, when something is spinning at 80,000rpm or so and explodes well...........better be some serious distance, at least thats how turbines are perceived by many in the AMA. I will be surprised if/when they are allowed by just anyone W an AMA card myself and it remains to be seen, on the other hand if I didnt live month to month like the majority of people I associate with, I too would buy a Turbine just to play with regardless of Ins. or not... if I could afford one, sure what the heck if money isnt an issue. Just wanted you to know im not bashing. Personally, I do hope the AMA will allow them then we will see them in action at the local funflys when the "big boys" come out to play W their big toys!

10-24-2002 Over year old.

pilotError
Key Veteran
Location: Long Island, NY

No Problem

Heliman,

Your post was somewhat more constructive than the flying electron comment. AMA can delay progress, but I certainly don't think they can stop it for too much longer. I only go to one funfly a year (that's all we have around here

).

I'm just looking to make an informed decision. I actually got an offer to come by and see one first hand from a semi-local JetCat rep.

We'll see, so far it's just a passing interest. Seeing one may tip the scales one way or the other. I may find that it's just not for me...

OR you may see a bunch more stuff up for sale!

Good Judgement comes from Experience. Great Judgement comes from Bad Experience.

10-24-2002 Over year old.

Twobeers
Key Veteran
Location: Toronto, Canada

Turbines run on Jet Fuel, otherwise known to us earth bound types as kerosene. Some turbine oil is mixed with the fuel to aid in lubrication. What is kerosene you may ask? Its a slightly more refined version of diesel oil which is a slighly more refined version of home heating oil which is slightly more refined than coal oil. As for its imflamablility, its a lot less volatile then gasoline is and burns a lot slower. Can't find kerosene? Paint thinner, aka varsol would work just fine. Its what less than $2 per gallon. If you wanted a 45 gallon drum of kerosene don't be suprised if the deposit on the barrel is twice that of the contents.

I lost my infamous tag line.

10-25-2002 Over year old.

Peter Wales
Key Veteran
Location: Orlando Fl

As twobeers says, the fuel is just household heating kerosene with turbine oil mixed in. Its 30% nitor glow fuel which is $20 a gallon. My turbine fuel costs about $2 a gallon, but I used 1/2 gallon doing the tarcking on the Lama today

When you buy one of these engines, you get a GSU, Ground Service Unit, which is a readout device for all of the parameters in the system. It includes total running time, number of failed starts and why, battery status, egts etc etc. Its all stored in there.

I think the service will be only for a change of bearings as the heli units are running at about 60% of the plank units rpms and the wear should be commensurately less.

I am glad you like my Lama, I am very proud of it, but would you pay $15,000 for a kit? Thats what I have in it.

AMA

Peter Wales

10-25-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

pilotError
Key Veteran
Location: Long Island, NY

Thanks for the replies

To all,

Thanks for the replies. I think the fuel was really my biggest concern, as I have small children around. I usually empty my tanks and store fuel in the garage.

I'm going to take a trip one weekend soon and go see one fly.

Peter, who needs that new car anyway

Do these things come with a new wife as well? I know what's gonna happen when she opens that Credit card bill!

Mike...

Good Judgement comes from Experience. Great Judgement comes from Bad Experience.

10-25-2002 Over year old.

Peter Wales
Key Veteran
Location: Orlando Fl

No, you get to keep the old wife, but she seems to spend a lot less time cooking dinner anda lot more time in the jewellery store.

I went into the most expensive store in town to get my watch fixed and they were all on first name terms with my wife. Very worrying!!

Peter Wales

10-25-2002 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

pilotError
Key Veteran
Location: Long Island, NY

It get's worse?

Peter,

The cooking has already stopped. If I don't call the Chinese food place for a few days, they call me to find out if everything is alright!

Mike...

Good Judgement comes from Experience. Great Judgement comes from Bad Experience.

10-25-2002 Over year old.

Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

Peters comment about the RPM difference is key. Since these engines use small ball bearings a small amount of the fuel is bleed off to mainly cool and lubricate. The front bearing takes the thrust and locates the rotating parts the rear bearing "floats" and locates the turbine wheel in the outer shroud. When the engine is shut down the heat from the turbine soaks back into the rear bearing and slowly degrades the inner race. Most of the commercial engines use ceramic bearings which only means that the balls are ceramic and that is to lower the "hoop" stress on the outer race at high RPM (the ceramic ball are much lighter). In aircraft application the rotating assembly turns over 120K on the smaller engines. The ceramic bearings are a must at that RPM not as important at under 100K Additionally these engines use "vaporizer" tubes in the
combustion liner and they erode away and must be changed. ( the fuel is squirted into tubes that are in the middle of the "fire" and the fuel is vaporized and mixed with some of the air in those tubes). The reason for this at this scale is that the low pressure ratio makes "spray" type fuel nozzles (which require very high fuel pressure to work) unnecessary.

First member of Member of Bearings Anonymous

10-25-2002 Over year old.

helimodels
Senior Heliman
Location: Dublin, Ireland

build to order?

Hi
I'm trying to get a guide on turbine kit building prices without much luck searching anyone here in the know? Does Len Mount build to order?
I've also posted this in a new thread Kind regards,

05-04-2003 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

This is a cutaway of the MW54 which is at the heart of the Jetcat design. The problem with doing the maintenance yourself is the AMA coverage. I have built one of these "home" built engines and there is nothing special about assembly disassembly. The "stick" assemblies are a critical part of the MW54 and would require precise positioning and TIG welding.

http://www.gtba.cnuce.cnr.it/MW54GA.GIF

First member of Member of Bearings Anonymous

05-06-2003 Over year old.

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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Turbine Helis - What's really involved

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