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GrandRC . CanoMod . Futaba-RC

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Vario Sky Fox - Benzin - Evolution - Xtreme > Vario CCPM Question
 
 
Craig G.
Heliman
Location: Central Ohio

I’d like to take advantage of the Vario expertise here to ask a few questions about ccpm. I’m setting up a used Extreme and am converting it from 4 point to 3-point ccpm. After positioning the ball link pick-up points on the swashplate in the correct position (120 degrees apart) it is clear that the rear two ball link pick-up points sit well inside the side frames. Vario offers a conversion kit, which is two 9.5 mm long ball link pick-up points that would help bring these points outside of the side frames. My question is why only two? Done this way the rear two points are 9.5 mm from the swashplate while the single forward one is much less. Surely this would cause undesirable control response.
A possible solution would be to install three longer points, turn the 180degrees and have the elevator servo in the rear.

Also, Vario and others state that 120-degree ccpm is the way to go for 3-D flying. Why do they use 90-degree ccpm on their new 3-D ship the X-perience?
10-22-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Naomi
Elite Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

Vario CCPM Setup info..

Hi Craig,
Click the link => Vario CCPM Setup It'll help answer lot of your question.. On Vario Canada Site it has some customer projects.. one of them is the X-Treme 3D built up and setup page.. check it out.. hope that helps..

Naomi
10-22-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Craig G.
Heliman
Location: Central Ohio

CCPM Setup

Thanks Heli Gal, I've been there. Great site for basic ccpm setup but it does not touch on what I'm asking.
10-22-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Naomi
Elite Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

You should really email to Daniel , the site owner, he's quite knowledgeable about your question. He'll return your email pretty fast.

Naomi
10-22-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
East Coast Scale
Key Veteran
Location: Taxachussetts

You will not get any interaction by just replacing the two forward points on the swash plate. All that will happen is that you will get a little more throw on elevator. It is not necessary to replace the elevator ball with one of the same size. I have flown helis with the stock balls (shorter) on all three axes's, then replaced the front balls so the arms were a "straighter" shot to the swash, and noticed no difference at all. I don't know why Vario chose 4pt for the Experience as opposed to the 3 servo 120 setup.
Joe
10-22-2002 Over year old.
 
 
ssphoenix
Heliman
Location: Phoenix

4 points CCPM

Creg,

I am going to take a crack at your last questions. Although I do not know exactly the reason behind why Vario opted for 4 Point CCPM, I know why I would. I too, have been flying 3 points CCMP in my old Furies and I suppose half CCPM on my milli. I’ve got my first experience and the first thing I did, cut the frames and tried to set it up for 3 points because the weight I though. To make the story short I gave up and decided to try the 4 points. Here is what I found:

The amount of weight adding an extra servo will not get you near the amount of benefits you get by implementing 4 Points CCPM.

1. You will get greater precision in control. Think about, now you have 4 points of transmitting control to the head rather then 3. Perhaps not as good of an analogy but 800 pixels on your monitor is better then 640. You get a clear picture condensing more pixel in the same amount of area. Same on the swash plate, you put more points, you get a better control to the rotor-head. I suppose to a certain extend. Someone was asking if anyone is doing 4D. Perhaps there is correlation to 4D and 6 or 7 or even 9 points CCPM.
2. 4 Points CCPM will get you greater travel at the extremities. Again think about the swash-plate, draw a triangle. The corner of a 4 point CCPM will be longer therefore further out, therefore larger travel to the swashplate. I already mention in my last post. I am at %50 swash plate setup on my 9ZHP and I am getting 20 degrees of pitch with 100% servo ATV. A furie would be at %65 to get 20. I understand the geometry is different, the sizes of the swashplates might be differerent, therefore these number don't mean much but as an example and if you didn't miss your geometry classes, it is safe to say larger swashplate will give you larger travel (depends also on the inner ball links)
3. Now believe it or not with this range of travel, your servos will work better, last longer, and will draw less power from your battery which I do not have the ability to calculate but no doubt in my mind will offset the extra servo you now have.
4. No question your servos will work better because now you have 4 doing the job for 3.
5. Perhaps the most important of all and I’ve actually came to witness, is redundancy. I flew hard 3D with 3 servos in this configuration because I lost the screw on one of the servo arm. I did notice a bit of a slag in controls but nothing out of the ordinary. I found the screw missing on my next preflight check. I'll take %50 chance to save my helicopter any day.

I’ve already mentioned again in my last post. Perhaps the only down side of the 4 point CCPM is the cumbersome setup. You always need to change at least 2 controls rods. For example, if the helicopter drifts to the right, the proper way to adjust the swashplate is to unscrew the right servo rod, lets say one turn, and screw in the left side servo the same amount. Perhaps someone else care to fill in as to why.


Hope this helps.
10-23-2002 Over year old.
 
 
DStJohn
Senior Heliman
Location: Ft. Collins, CO

I have to agree with my SSPhoenix (How's it going guys? Haven't seen you since Chatfield in May!). Four point is the way to go. I have 120 degree on my Evo S and my Kobold, and 90 degree on my Xtreme S. The Xtreme is much more solid, it just feels more precise. I am running 4131's on my Evo and Kobold and 8101's on my Xtreme. The only caveat i susing digital servos on 4 point, the servos are too precise, they will fight each other and cause major battery drain. That is why I use the 4131's or 8101's. They have more than enough power and have good deadband.
Go with the 4 point, it is worth it!
10-23-2002 Over year old.
 
 
ssphoenix
Heliman
Location: Phoenix

4 popints - how to

On the 4 points, if you do not place the ball link exactly 90 degree, might as well throw your servos away or send them to me . The CCPM will work all right just because there is so much power. If you have digital servos, they will definitely talk to you and talk loud.

For a good setup take a Futaba large servo wheels. There should be only one hole that matches exactly perpendicular line by rotating the wheel on the servo. If you look closely they are numbered and only one number will fit. That is the one you should use. Not sure if JR has them wheels numbered but I suppose. Of course this should be done while your servos have been setup to exactly ½ stick or center.

Your main concern is to create the perfect CCPM. Forget about everything else for now. You can even remove the entire rotor head and leave just the swash-plate on.
Match all the 4 rods exactly and you are ½ way there. If you follow this step, you will be surprised how well the helicopter flies. All 4 servos, if you are using digital you should hear just the normal buzzing sound but nothing out of the ordinary anywhere on the pitch points. If you do, go back to the drawing board.


No questions 4 points it is more sophisticate if you go down to geometry and mathematics and therefore harder to setup. In a nut shell, you need to do these steps because this: Instead of a solid metal swash-plate, consider for a moment that the 4 points of the swash plate are connected with a wire. What happens if only one point gets modified? Of course the wire will bend accordingly. This should be simple to understand now to what happens when there isn’t a wire but a solid metal piece. 3 servos fighting the 4th one in a very bad way een more so, the state will be amplified at the extremities. You can kiss your servos and its dead bandwidth goodbye only after several flights.

The benefits for having a proper 4 points CCPM are tremendous and no one should be discouraged. I have gone through 12 servo wheels until I got one setup correctly. On my first flight (after I trimmed the helicopter) started with some easy maneuver, backwards rolls, loops, tick tacks the usual. I landed and stood there in disbelieve, going to everything I’ve done in trying to figure out what the hell just happened. It was bad, it looked very bad. All my maneuvers where way off. The backward rolls that used to look like on a string now looked like zig-zags. Aaaa.. Stick movements. While I was used to larger amounts of stick movements, now I needed much less to accomplish the same.

I suppose the rest of the benefits are in your wallet.
10-23-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Craig G.
Heliman
Location: Central Ohio

Vario CCPM Question

Excellent replies...thanks for the info. I use four point on my Skyfox/Jet Ranger and three point on my Graupners. Not a fair comparison but what I think I will do is setup the Extreme initialy with 3 point then later switch to 4 in order to compare.

Thanks again,

Craig G.
10-23-2002 Over year old.
 
 
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Vario Sky Fox - Benzin - Evolution - Xtreme > Vario CCPM Question
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