RunRyder - Tail motor instead of tail belt:

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e-Align T-REX 450-500-600 > Tail motor instead of tail belt:

heliboy1023
Veteran
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ

Quote
heliboy1023 you are just not getting it son. this in theory should fly no different from a belt drive except: 1.) possibly more weight at tail end 2.) Possibly increased flight times as generating 10,000 rpms through a direct drive vs. through 2 gears, 2 pulley's and a plastic belt is certainly MORE efficient. This will be constant speed variable pitch....nothing like the Toy Blade

Still wouldn't be worth it. Sure you will have better runtimes, and everything will be cooler since it will be more efficient, yet you will be doing a crap load of mixing. You will have to mix it with the throttle, and mix that with the gyro. All I see is a bunch of headacks, for something that probably will only fly a little better if even that. It is like adding an intake to a civic. Sure, it will help, yet isn't worth it.

You know you have to many heli's only when your wallet is empty.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

AnnihilaT
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands Force: The Dark Side

Heliboy,

You still arent getting it. the tail will run a CONSTANT SPEED just like when its belt driven and the gyro will control a servo which is attached to the pitch lever just as it is now. There is no mixing. Set the governor to the desired tail rotor rpm using endpoints on a free channel (for example) and thats it. (an airplane tach might be useful for this?)

About the motor.... What's the OD of that motor you guys are using... I wonder if i could modify one of my tail cases to mount it in... At only 32 grams it might be very doable to make a very light and strong alum tail mount which wouldnt put you much over what the tail system with belt weighs now... I think my tail case is just over 6 grams now (cant remember exactly from my head).

A day without sunshine is like, well, night.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

The build thread over at RCG has some nice pictures showing how he got his motor mounted. It actually looks quite professional.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

heliboy1023
Veteran
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ

Quote
Heliboy, You still arent getting it. the tail will run a CONSTANT SPEED just like when its belt driven and the gyro will control a servo which is attached to the pitch lever just as it is now. There is no mixing. Set the governor to the desired tail rotor rpm using endpoints on a free channel (for example) and thats it. (an airplane tach might be useful for this?)

Now that is pointless. If you have it at a set speed no matter the rmp, then starting up, you will be in an uncontrolable pyro. Also, while doing 3d, and the motor boggs a little, that drop in headspeed will move the tail. All I know the last thing I want in a flip is to start having the tail move on me. The fact is, you will need the motor to change rpm via where you are on the throttle, and motor efficiency. Once again, all the mixing, and just isn't worth it.

You know you have to many heli's only when your wallet is empty.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

heliboy1023
Veteran
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ

Quote
You still have record player dont you .

I'm 16, what is this record player you talk about. What I have is a lot less head acks, that is one thing I do have.
Also, no matter what, it will take a lot of mixing. Sure, I love my technology, yet I also like the K.I.S.S. method of things, and heli's are some of the things I like to be very simple, and to have limited fail points.

You know you have to many heli's only when your wallet is empty.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

AnnihilaT
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands Force: The Dark Side

Quote
Also, while doing 3d, and the motor boggs a little, that drop in headspeed will move the tail. All I know the last thing I want in a flip is to start having the tail move on me. The fact is, you will need the motor to change rpm via where you are on the throttle, and motor efficiency. Once again, all the mixing, and just isn't worth it.

There are clearly some fundamentals of heli mechanics you have missed entirely. So much of the above quote is wrong that i dont know where to begin.... Nevermind... I dont think you will get it anyway... Anyone else care to explain to him how a variable pitch system is meant to work?

Heliboy... another thing you seem to be missing is that this is just FUN for some people to think outside the box and try new ideas. Noone is saying this is the new way everyone should run their heli... its just something new and experimental so sit back and watch and maybe you will learn something. The only thing "useless" about this thread is the people who dont see the fun in trying this.

A day without sunshine is like, well, night.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

wow, to be 16 again. when you get a little older, or heck, maybe its just not your style, you may find peace in trivial activities such as trying new "out of the box" type of things.

Try a wife and 3 kids on for size. Trust me, swapping out belts for motors on an already perfectly operational helicopter will make perfect sense

03-22-2006 Over year old.

AnnihilaT
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands Force: The Dark Side

Yes and what he is missing is that its NOT RPM on a collective pitch bird with a variable pitch tail rotor that changes to hold the tail. Its the PITCH OF THE BLADES. The gyro will change the pitch of the tail blades to maintain heading regardless of what the main rotor does and in this case bogging of the main rotors will not effect tail rotor speed at all which is a GOOD THING and how it SHOULD BE.

The only POSSIBLE down sides i see at the moment are:

1) extra inertia in the tail as it swings doing weird things to how the tail behaves in certain 3D maneuvers

2) Having to re-arrange things to get CG right

3) the cost and hassle of the thing but we allfly rc helis for a hobby! What the hell do we care about cost or hassle!

A day without sunshine is like, well, night.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

heliboy1023
Veteran
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ

Quote
Heliboy... another thing you seem to be missing is that this is just FUN for some people to think outside the box and try new ideas. Noone is saying this is the new way everyone should run their heli... its just something new and experimental so sit back and watch and maybe you will learn something. The only thing "useless" about this thread is the people who dont see the fun in trying this.

Why go through the trouble. I can see doing it if something didn't satisfy you, yet to take a system that is only used on small micro's for IMO good reason, and try to fit it on a larger heli is somewhat pointless. It is like trying to supercharge a nitro rc motor. Sure, it will be cool if it works, yet a lot of problems, no that fun for me.

Quote
wow, to be 16 again. when you get a little older, or heck, maybe its just not your style, you may find peace in trivial activities such as trying new "out of the box" type of things. Try a wife and 3 kids on for size. Trust me, swapping out belts for motors on an already perfectly operational helicopter will make perfect sense

I have tried many things "outside the box". I spend a lot of my time at school in the shop building stuff, trying to think about how I can make my day at school easier. Sure, I get a lot of headacks, yet what I dont do is take something I know has problems, and try to use it to better something. I have learned this a few years ago trying to make a cheap crawler out of an old radio shack truck. All I got out of it was $100 down the drain.

Quote

Well infact this is better than the mains system(rotorhead) as it has a built in fail safe to eliminate what you say will happen, its called a gyro it will stop the tail from moving

), all i know is with HH, gov mode, liths and brushless and my phx link, its KISS my arse

old school technology!, ie the record player

.
I fail to see how you think this is so complictaed, hecck! you just bolt it on, push a few buttons on your mouse and then go and fly, we will do all the parmater testing for your you can get the right motor to start with

Since you seem to want the tail motor at a constant rpm, how do you plan on cooling the motor. Our tails spin at lets say an average 45,000rpm's. We also have around 7-12 minutes of flight. I will feel really bad for that motor. Also, during spool-up, what will the tail be doing. At that high rpm, w/o enough headspeed, no matter how much pitch you are giving to the tail, you will still be in a bad pyro. Hence the fact for the mixing. Also, vibration should be a nice problem. Again the high rmp's are really a pain. I would like to see how well a gyro (but a 611) would work with the vibration the motor will be putting out. And you can't lower the headspeed, as that would hurt stability. Hence the fact is isn't bolt and click.

You know you have to many heli's only when your wallet is empty.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

heliboy1023
Veteran
Location: Tinton Falls, NJ

Quote
cooling for the motor is easy, you just fit 2 tail blades and use them as fans, can even use them to steer the heli as well, with the right wind and set up the motor should not run hot or warm, thats the the tricky part and what we can test and sort out as a group. the only reason for a vibration is because you left it there, do you balance your motors currnently? can you? is it an outrunner?.

Name one motor that can spin at 45000rpm w/o vibration balanced or not. You will need a gear reduction system to stop it, and a way to mount all of it. Also, unless you do you reduction gears, I don't think even with proper cooling, it would stay cool enough.

By the way, I don't use cheap anymore, hence my $170 Jazz.

You know you have to many heli's only when your wallet is empty.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

Ozy and *cough* Willy, I'm looking forward to reading more about ya'lls progress with this. I think you've formed a sound hypothesis.

Please forgive me Willy, but did you get new meds or something?

03-22-2006 Over year old.

AnnihilaT
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands Force: The Dark Side

Quote
Why go through the trouble. I can see doing it if something didn't satisfy you, yet to take a system that is only used on small micro's for IMO good reason, and try to fit it on a larger heli is somewhat pointless. It is like trying to supercharge a nitro rc motor. Sure, it will be cool if it works, yet a lot of problems, no that fun for me.

Whats pointless and no fun for one person is a challenge and a delight to another. You made your point (i think?) and have shown that you have no imagination, no real understanding of how your heli works, and no scope for adventure and creativity. Now butt out and let the thread get back on topic, eh?

Quote
dd on the mains direct motor to mainshaft

Now this is a fun idea!!! Who's gonna start on this?

A day without sunshine is like, well, night.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

AnnihilaT
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands Force: The Dark Side

watch the vid!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/reflex...st%20flight.wmv

A day without sunshine is like, well, night.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

jcrack_corn
Senior Heliman
Location: Lafayette, LA

I really think i might start making my head bleed by banging on my house a little bit.

This guy has got to be messing with us, no way anyone keeps using the same argument when it has been explained in detail that they are wrong.

I will try to address these points below, then I am going to start drinking.

1.) Motors run cooler at constant rpm, so X that one out.
2.) Tail will run at 10,000 rpms, he picked a 13xx kv motor and will run it at about 70%. Good efficiency there.
3.) LOL, the tail cant make the bird piro while it is on the ground, unless you are on water or ice. try to do RIGHT HANDed piros (only tail involved) while on the ground, make a video.
4.) You are Not REALLY trying to argue that the direct drive setup will have MORE vibration than our current 2 gear, 2 pully, long plastic belt version right, please tell me you are NOT doing that.
5.) FInally, all your points are null and void because from a standpoint of physics, the motor driven tail proposed operates in the end exactly like our current setup (from a PHYSICS standpoint, that means science and reality).....

6.) I do like your point about how complicated a mix would be...you are right....he could set up a gain channel at 70%, tail is now driven. Then he could mix that to collective to drop to 0% when throttle is 0%, OOOOPSSS, just solved your magic ground piro problem....

Quote

heliboy-wonder says:
Since you seem to want the tail motor at a constant rpm, how do you plan on cooling the motor. Our tails spin at lets say an average 45,000rpm's. We also have around 7-12 minutes of flight. I will feel really bad for that motor. Also, during spool-up, what will the tail be doing. At that high rpm, w/o enough headspeed, no matter how much pitch you are giving to the tail, you will still be in a bad pyro. Hence the fact for the mixing. Also, vibration should be a nice problem. Again the high rmp's are really a pain. I would like to see how well a gyro (but a 611) would work with the vibration the motor will be putting out. And you can't lower the headspeed, as that would hurt stability. Hence the fact is isn't bolt and click.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

picture says a thousand words. I must've missed the link to the video. Very impressive indeed.

03-22-2006 Over year old.

Ozydego
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, Ohio

Ok, a bit above, someone mentioned putting the motor on the front pulley shaft... this is actually a good idea as well, to solve the weight at the tail problem... this also seperates the mains from the tail, which is also a good thing.... The only bad thing I see is still using the tail belt which as of late has been crapping out on me, I think due to the new metal pulleys.... I am going to pick up the motor today and start testing it out as far as mixing goes.... I will also be able to get you dimensions Anni, to see if it could be mounted in a tail box....

Heliboy... Thanks for your input (however misguided it is), because it gets everyone thinking about solving the problem and helps this little project along.... See how much we have learned about mixing the tail and polishing the factors that it brings to the table....

But Honey, I can't live with just stock.....

03-22-2006 Over year old.

Ozydego
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, Ohio

Ok, also how did I miss the closeups of the tail that Reflex did... I only saw one pic on RCgroups... can someone post a link to the setup topic..... I just saw the one about testing it apparently....

But Honey, I can't live with just stock.....

03-22-2006 Over year old.

spork
Veteran
Location: Mountain View, CA

Quote
I have learned this a few years ago trying to make a cheap crawler out of an old radio shack truck. All I got out of it was $100 down the drain.

I'm willing to bet that when you look back 15 years from now, as an experienced engineer, you'll realize that may well have been the best $100 spent on your education.

I've been an engineer for far too many years. School taught me all the math, physics, and aero I need to be rigorous about my approach, but designing, building, and flying R/C taught me so much that far too few engineers have these days (IMO). Even going down the wrong path is worth a ton (although I think these guys are onto something interesting).

RC

03-22-2006 Over year old.

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Ozydego
Key Veteran
Location: Westerville, Ohio

This is the manual for the park 300 outrunner.

http://www.e-fliterc.com/ProdInfo/F...nstructions.pdf

The shaft is replaceable, there is even a part number for it, so now I just need to find two bearings with a slightly bigger ID and the same tail OD....

But Honey, I can't live with just stock.....

03-22-2006 Over year old.

Hoverdown3K
Key Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

This has been done before with the Shogun, when people where having gear mesh issues and stripping gears. Some went to a two motor setup like a Hummingbird. but with vari pitch..

It never took off on the Shogun, and many people ended up upgrading to a belt drive when that became avaiable. In fact the new Shogun V2 now has a belt drive.

Hummingbird 3D Pro is belt driven, not longer requires a rear motor.

So If the tail motor was the better way to go I am sure many more choppers would be setup like this. After all it would be cheaper to make the kits, less parts are involved, So I am sure many kits makers would jump on the chance to lower the cost of making kits and then still selling them for the same cost.

The current line up of belt driven choppers clearly shows that belt drives are very efficient when setup correcly. I can not think of a larger chopper that uses a tail motor, I think the ECO 7 and that model got bad reviews because of it...

What you are doing works, but I do not see any improvements over a belt drive. But I do see an extra cost in a BL motor and BL ESC.

Lets see some TESTS???
Do you have any run times?

With belt driven tail?

with motor driven tail?

all in all to each there own...

-= I know there is Money in RC helicopters. I put it there=-

03-22-2006 Over year old.

HOMEPAGE

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e-Align T-REX 450-500-600 > Tail motor instead of tail belt:

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