RunRyder - Anyone else got a letter from Reflex?

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Computer Flight Simulators > Anyone else got a letter from Reflex?

webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

what i mean is that i dont give a (you know what) if they will replace it for free or not, i dont want buisness with them.

I would much rather get G3, and i will do when i sew that hole up in the bottom of my pocket

meh

03-22-2006 02:21 PM

HOMEPAGE

webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

Nah you see realflight actually cared about their product and protected them to prevent such incidents as this. Turned out quite well i guess.

By the way, what has me going and getting a G3 simulator got to do with blackmail exactly?

Also gotta admit im quite impressed you seem to be going a long while without exploding

meh

03-22-2006 02:26 PM

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Dan C
Senior Heliman
Location: Barnsley, Yorkshire

Quote
Now what, we wouldn't need any security if we wouldn't have guys like you so who is causing the problem: the good guy, making the product or the bad guy stealing it. Is the good guy bad because he didn't lock his product in the way the bad guy can't do anything anymore?

was the dongle an actual security device or an interace to a PC market which was loosing the traditional serial port,parallel port
and Midi port the traditional IO to PC's.

I am guessing it was interface only.

Stopped the casual copyright thieft initially as the interface to the PC was not easily available or understood but in time as the technoloy is better understood its easily over come

Having a VID and PID only show you joined the USBIF and wanted a fully compliant USB device, not that it was a security device.

Its a real bitch when the hard to make becomes mass market and easily understood.

Still Copyright theft is wrong and this is what the dongle was used to do. But still maybe more care was to be taken or is this the first time that software copyright has been circumvented

I would say go ahead develope a secure interface as what is the expected lifetime of a "sim" eg buy it now use it like crazy for maybe a year or so and its put aside as hopefully now you can use the real thing. Be about the right time to upgrade to a new PC and video card etc why not new hardware. offer trade in on legit interfaces to uprade to "secure" version and new software etc.

03-22-2006 02:26 PM

RCHeliJim
Elite Veteran
Location: Orem, UT USA

Quote
Ever tried changing ownership with G3?

Yep, one email and in 24 hours it was done- really difficult

This is insane, if I were Wolfgang - I would ask/beg Mark Ryder to ban SwissKurt from this thread as he is being perceived to be Wolfgang and saying things that are destroying the Reflex product's reputation. SwissKurt, if you are not Wolfgang, you still obviously LOVE the Reflex product - you are not doing them any good with the rude, mean, and sharp comments.

The fact of the matter is that Wolfgang stepped over the line when they demanded the MONETARY COMPENSATION TWICE!!! If they had sent a better written, non-mafia type, letter requesting that the cable be surrendered it would have done 1000% more good for them than the pile of anger they sent out (which is now mysteriously gone from the thread).

This is sad, I like the XTR sim and I think its a great product. But Wolfgang is doing the same thing the record companies here have been doing- alienating current and future customers. Notice that record sales in the US keep declining, even after many of the P2P systems have been shutdown?? Suing Grandmas over their grandkid's internet use may have been part of it...

Just a word of advice to Wolfgang, none of us are advocating piracy, but none of us advocate threats and double-compensation either. Get the cables returned/destroyed and maybe offer some rebate to the people that actually comply - it will get you more customers. This current action WILL, without a doubt, decrease your sales for the short term. Why throw away a perfect marketing opportunity like this????

Go Fly, Have Fun!!
-Team Quick UK
-Team RCHeliMag

03-22-2006 02:51 PM

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webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

swisskurt, ok, take last comment back.

For the interest of all of us, exactly what is your relation to reflex? do you work for them, do you just like their product? Why do you insist on turning on everyone to promote this company? If you work for the company that is understandable (depending on your position), but you have not yet stated what relations you have or why you are contredicting everything everyone is saying.

meh

03-22-2006 03:12 PM

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Pjotrrr
Heliman
Location: Netherlands

Well.

Reflex could have had a lot of happy users by asking them to return the cable and giving them a bonus coupon to purchase the original...
That said, here's a link to the letter they send that I found on the Dutch forum:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~chuchubi/drif...brief/brief.jpg
Freedom of information

03-22-2006 03:12 PM

Andy from Sandy
Veteran
Location: UK

@oneinnesja
I was kind of thinking the same thing. There is 2 or 3 people a day asking which sim to get.
So if its 2 and this happens 300 days a year in the UK that totals £72000 with a sale price of £120.
I don't know what the shops pay for it but that is the potential lost sales revenue.

03-22-2006 03:54 PM

rotor- shark
Veteran
Location: uk

swiss kurt is banging on his "i made a simulator and you can't drum again" just because we're not computer programmers doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on the product and it's sales price.i've never seen such a damaging thread on reflex products,this surely is not doing reflex products anygood at all.WHY DON'T YOU STOP HIDING BEHIND THIS MYSERIOUS SWISS KURT CHARACTER AND TELL US EXACTLY WHO YOU REALLY ARE? TELL US......................STOP HIDING.i will be really honest with you and tell you that alot of people including myself are very bitter towards the r/c industry at times due the very high cost involved in anything you need to buy.

all comments are my opinion only!

03-22-2006 04:00 PM

gof407
Heliman
Location: Nederland

Interface or not?

Something I don't understand correctly, the Reflex USB, is it a (simple) interface or does it contain some code to protect the software? Like an encrypted code what you can find in a dongle to activate the software and as second you can use the USB to connect a controller too.

Because if is a simple interface, then everybody can build their own interface. There is no law against it to build your own interfaces

(as far as I know)

I don't consider interfaces as a crack.
What do you think about the digital photo cameras with their propriety RAW photo data! Do you think that Adobe, C1, Bibble etc, etc, pays some royalties? Nope, it's an interface to read those RAW images.
As long it isn't encrypted to protect, you can do what you want with those RAW photo's.
To me it would be the same for the USB interface.

03-22-2006 04:17 PM

hingus2000
Key Veteran
Location: West Midlands UK Posts: 75069

Quote
http://www.xs4all.nl/~chuchubi/drif...brief/brief.jpg

OMG, i cant believe a company would send that letter! It appears more like hate mail than an official letter!

For shame.

Tom

T-Rex SA, Anodized Head, Gy240, 3s TP 2100mah, Align 35A ESC, 430L Motor

03-22-2006 04:35 PM

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Xterra
Senior Heliman
Location: USA

Free advertisement

Before I read this thread I was only thinking about buying Reflex -I do own a legal copy of G3.
Now that I have read most of the post I decided to buy A LEGAL copy of Reflex. Even though I do not like the letter I think they are right while trying to protect their investment. Anyways, good luck to everyone.

PS. I do not know about USA but I know that in some other countries is you obligation as a buyer to make sure you're not buying stolen stuff and yes there are a bunch of legal action that can be taken. Otherwise everyone would say they did not know it was stolen even though they did.

Stratus
Raptor 50V2
T-rex SE
T-rex CDE
Kyosho M24

03-22-2006 05:28 PM

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Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Quote
Now that I have read most of the post I decided to buy A LEGAL copy of Reflex. Even though I do not like the letter I think they are right while trying to protect their investment. Anyways, good luck to everyone.

@Xterra
Do you mean that before reading this thread you were using it illegally?
If not I must have overlooked where the good features of Reflex and the nice business practices are mentioned in this thread because I didn't see it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Reflex is not good. I just mean that I don't see anything in THIS thread that could convince you of supporting them.

03-22-2006 05:35 PM

webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

i have a legal version or reflex too, and would never dream of trying to forge a copy, but it just p**ses me off that reflex staretd putting all these customers under presure without the slightest bit of proof that they even have reflex on their pc besides "the interface has reflex code in it, therefore they MUST be using it for reflex"

P.S. how can you be tempted to buy reflex after this thread?

meh

03-22-2006 05:53 PM

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Andy from Sandy
Veteran
Location: UK

Exactly right webhost. Your not an arse any more LOL. This has been the thrust from most of the posts. Where is the proof that it was purchased to be used with Reflex. Did the people purchasing it do it knowingly?

03-22-2006 05:59 PM

RCfan
Key Veteran
Location: Longwood, FL USA

Reflex has done a great thing by going after the creator of these cables and taking him down. They've always made it very clear that their copyright should not be "toyed" with and those that do would pay in the end.

However, whatever good they've done by this was quickly and completely undone by targetting consumers of such cables with an unprofessional letter and unneeded threats. Sure I can see how Reflex can feel they deserve to be compensated for this, however (as I've mentioned earlier) this should have been dealt with as part of the court proceedings and established in writing in any restitutions.

Several things I see wrong with the letter sent to the "customers" include missing information about court proceedings and required reference information. ANY legal action process would have included this information (there has to be something to help consumers validate this is legitimate and not a scam letter). Second, the letter (which as far as we know appears legitimate), includes wording to the fact that Reflex somehow "found" a list of consumers that purchased these cables from the creator. Unfortunately there's no indication that this action was either approved or mandated by a court. As such, that alone makes the letter itself illegal and opens up a ton of legal problems for Reflex.

Personally I really hope Reflex did take all these matters up to a court of law and it's nothing like this Simster indicates. One way or another, Reflex needs to correct the wrongful and bullyish letter. They need to be very specific on any court proceedings, it's findings and provide letter holders information on how to verify the results. If, however, it turns out that they only handled matters directly with the creator of the cable, and no court of law has established that the cable is indeed illegal, then I would say Reflex has to retract their letter immediately. I'm not saying the cable is legal (we all know it isn't), I'm just stating that if a court hasn't established this, their letter is invalid.

Reflex, please step up and do the right thing ASAP.

03-22-2006 06:07 PM

HOMEPAGE

Xterra
Senior Heliman
Location: USA

tvhalter

No, I have never used an illegal copy of Reflex. Even though I am a happy G3 customer, I like the sim a lot and I decided to buy a LEGAL copy of it.

Quote
I just mean that I don't see anything in THIS thread that could convince you of supporting them.

I support them because I think they are right in what they are doing to protect their business. If just my opinion, I said I did not like the letter but I still think they are doing what they have to.

Quote
P.S. how can you be tempted to buy reflex after this thread?

Not tempted, my LEGAL copy got shipped yesterday! I know I will love it

Again, good luck to everybody with this dispute.

Stratus
Raptor 50V2
T-rex SE
T-rex CDE
Kyosho M24

03-22-2006 06:10 PM

HOMEPAGE

hingus2000
Key Veteran
Location: West Midlands UK Posts: 75069

Xterra, just curious, do you think they are justified in their demands for money off the end users, as well as the return of the dongle?

Tom

T-Rex SA, Anodized Head, Gy240, 3s TP 2100mah, Align 35A ESC, 430L Motor

03-22-2006 06:31 PM

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Laurens
Key Veteran
Location: Oegstgeest, NL

Quote
it the reflex capable code inside that is protected, don't you get it?

Huh???

So how do I know how the code inside the chip looks like?

How do I know what the original code looks like?

TeamFlightpower, Team Flighttech, BW Stratus, Trex 500

03-22-2006 06:37 PM

webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

Quote
Andy from Sandy

You thought i was an arse?

cool lol (nah jus kidding its good that im not an arse lol)
.
What i mentioned then is genearlly what ive been trying to explain to people, and to answer your question,

Quote
Did the people purchasing it do it knowingly?

Thats the problem, no they didn't (atleast not all would have). It was not mentioned on the websites that were selling them that you can actually use it on reflex, they merely stated it was an interface cable to connect your transmitter to your computer (from what i have gathered)

That is why it (u kno what) me off. If the websites said "we will give you this interface which BY THE WAY WORKS ON REFLEX" for £30, then by all means i would have had to say screw the people that bought it, as that would have been a direct connection to someone buying it for one sole purpose.

This is not the case through.

meh

03-22-2006 06:47 PM

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nivlek
rrProfessor
Location: Norfolk England

Even if the interface did say that it would work with Reflex , so what . Unless you've actually bought and therefore read the legal agreement that comes with Reflex , how would you know that using the interface with Reflex would be illegal . You may well just assume that the copy protection was on the Reflex disc , and be totally unaware that there was any Reflex protection code in the genuine inteface or the one that you had purchased .

At the end of the day , it gets dark .

03-22-2006 07:00 PM

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