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Computer Flight Simulators > Anyone else got a letter from Reflex?
 
 
**__MERCURY__**
Heliman
Location: Australia

Hi i just came across this Thread and havent read all posts but thought this sounds strange.
Is the letter a genuine item from reflex, have they been contacted to confirm the letter?
just make sure its not a scam from some one with the ability to do so. If it is genuine ive got no idea what to do id seek legal advice.
good luck
03-22-2006 12:47 AM
 
 
webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

swisskurt (im guessing you work for reflex btw?)

I see your point in needing to secure buisness, but how do you justify requesting the interface back from them people that were actually genuinely using it for free software only.

In this scenario the end user has never done anything wrong to misuse this interface, and regardless of this, they are still being forced to return their interface to some company they have never even thought about, AND give this company money.

How can you justify that to be in the slightest bit fair to the innocent end user??

meh
03-22-2006 02:47 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rotor- shark
Veteran
Location: uk

Bagobitz.....................quite frankly i don't give a s.h.i.t how many copies of reflex are sold,it's not my problem to take that into account is it?it cost's me a fortune in taxi fares to get to and from work,but the company tell me it's my problem not theirs! they don't pay me extra money because i'm not making as much profit as the other blokes!by the same token i don't take into account reflexes sales history.if they were out selling games they would still be selling at £130 because that is what you have been "told" is the correct price.do bear in mind that people have created SLIGHTLY less specification simulators for free on the internet for all to use before you defend the likes of wolfgang.

all comments are my opinion only!
03-22-2006 03:25 AM
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

SwissKurt is right about that code issue. Reflex's legal position is that they don't care about what software you are using, they don't even care if you bought Reflex legally. If you bought this interface you've bought something that apparently violates a copyright or patent in the interface itself. This whole issue is not about stealing Reflex!!!

Obviously preventing theft is their ultimate goal (and who can blame them for that) but the letter and the legal threats are about the interface alone.

So if you've bought Reflex legally and you are using this interface cable because you lost your previous one (far fetched but possible) they don't care and will sue you (or only say they will).

I learned this after communicating with Reflex themselves.
03-22-2006 07:52 AM
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

I also don't understand what the fuss is all about with not being able to get a replacement interface from Reflex. Obviously if they started handing out interfaces some people would take advantage of that en start copying Reflex.

Maybe they could have required you to send in your old interface in order to get it repaired(replaced) but sending out interfaces to people that 'lost' them would not be wise.

I'm not defending Reflex here. I've been bitten by them as well for using the cable with my legal RealFlight but some people think that anything that they don't like is bad on Reflex's part.

To sum up things mentioned in this thread:
-They should sell Reflex for $10 because anything higher is too much.
-We should be allowed to get more cables from them so that we can copy Reflex and hand it out to our friends. We have piece of mind with this because it is their fault the price is too high.
03-22-2006 08:03 AM
 
 
hingus2000
Key Veteran
Location: West Midlands UK Posts: 75069

i dont get it

I actually think simster summed it up nicely.

Legally, you chase up the chain not down it.

SwissKurt, you keep saying that the court ruled against the vendor and required them to give the addresses out, but we now know this isnt true, so why are you still lying?

It IS a breach of a privacy act, and I wouldnt be suprised if Reflex isnt vulnerable now to a class action by those who received the letter.

Tom

T-Rex SA, Anodized Head, Gy240, 3s TP 2100mah, Align 35A ESC, 430L Motor
03-22-2006 09:39 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Quote 
I also got a letter from Reflex. They told me that it is illegal to distribute Interfaces that use their USB vendor ID legalized and copyrighted by Reflex.

I also had to pay a real big amount to them. And I was forced to publish all customers of Reflex compatible interfaces, otherwise they would go to court.


This is a straight from a vendor. It basically says he was blackmailed into giving the addresses just the same as we are blackmailed to pay the 69 Euro. It also says that it hasn't gone to court.
03-22-2006 09:45 AM
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Quote 
The RC community especially in europe is not that big wolfgang, What you are doing is hurting your business more than what you hope to get out of it.


That might certainly be true. I still own an old RealFlight G1 and I was thinking about buying a cheapo Dell and upgrading my sim. I was thinking about buying Reflex or G3 but now Reflex is no longer an option. In a way I might thank them for making my choice so easy .
03-22-2006 09:51 AM
 
 
Dan C
Senior Heliman
Location: Barnsley, Yorkshire

I have just had an interesting thought.

I work as an embedded systems designer for single chip computers etc

Most of the USB devices I have seen ( eg microchip, ST , cypress (these are chip manufacturers)) the manufacturers freely give out the code and examples plus source code and applicatons to develope USB applications.

unless reflex have got USBIF.org to assign a new USB class then they are using a predefined USB class as the interface. If these "illegal" dongles were used to act as a joystick interface I an guessing they are part of the HID class device.

anyway the point being I would be very surprised if reflex did own all the USB device software in the dongle ( parts yes eg their USB vendor ID ) but I don't think all.

THe vendor ID and PID are just so windows/OS can recognise the product etc and load the correct driver ( most are microsoft supplied) and that the USB device has been implemented correctly.

I am guessing its a microchip running a USB HID class device ( device is low cost and the devlopement tools are free from the chip vendor along with some wonderful examples)

Thinking about this using a readily available USB class as dongle was a good attempt at stopping casual piracy its just a shame that after it was defeated by an organisation with knowledge they then chase the end user. Should have put more work into stoppng it in the first place.

Kurt I have a number of high value dongles I use eg PCB,compilers and others etc and I must admit I have not lost one yet so I do agree with the point you were making
03-22-2006 10:00 AM
 
 
erwin
Heliman
Location: Netherlands

Now it's time for Swisskurt to shutup while he does more demage for Reflex then good.

I hope there will be a word from the guys from Reflex in this tread.
I'm 100% sure they will read this.

Yes I'm such an illegal-dongle-owner, but there is not the slighest change I will let myself be blackmailed.
I'm willing to make apologies, sending the false dongle to Reflex and even buy a legal version when there is reasonable proposal.
(and there are more people thinking this way)

Well that can't be so hard, does it?
Afterall we will have to fly together again.
03-22-2006 10:12 AM
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

The good thing here is that there are a lot of new RR members.
I've never seen a thread with so much 'New Heliman'. Nice to meet you all .
03-22-2006 10:18 AM
 
 
hingus2000
Key Veteran
Location: West Midlands UK Posts: 75069

I wonder if reflex actually condone the talk of SwissKurt? He may have gone overboard in trying to defend them.

Tom

T-Rex SA, Anodized Head, Gy240, 3s TP 2100mah, Align 35A ESC, 430L Motor
03-22-2006 10:45 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Andi G
Veteran
Location: Switzerland

Quote 
Why don't you do the obvious, pay the amout, send back the interface and compensate from simster?



If I got that right you just accused Simster of theft?

While you are right about replacing dongles would make the copy proctection useless you could say that in a nice manner (and you'd have much higher chances to be heard). What you are doing is not the Swiss way of dealing with potential customers, more the German one

And before you accuse me of something, I had a legal copy of Reflex and sold it because I found a sim that works much better for me.

I apologize for the hard words of my countryman, it really makes me ashamed to read some of those posts.

By the way, I have worked with software that costs several millions per year and seat, I think the prices for the current top simulators are fair (consider the small number sold!). One of them comes with a nice buddy box, has less annoying bugs and the people behind it never tried to insult me, so it's the first choice for me. Reflex was my choice for many years before and it's not a bad sim either.
03-22-2006 11:21 AM
 
 
webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

Quote 
60? I would have asked far more because they could have handed over that ist to a law firm handling the matter and that would be 300+ flat fee.


What you dont tend to see is that these customers bought it without knowledge it would work on reflex XTR, it was not mentioned on the website, so customers didn't know.

A much friendlier approach would have been
Quote 
"you are in posession of an illegal hardware interface which must at all costs be sent into reflex. By handing in your interface, you will be 1 - saving yourself any future problems with courts for not returning interfaces, and 2 - we will give you a £20 voucher so that you can purchase an official version of reflex XTR."


Olbviously not in my words, but you get the point. TO charge innocent buyers for reflexes "so called compensation fee" is wrong and is losing them many customers. However should they have taken an approach where they reward the end user for handing in their interface, they would probably have gained themselfs much fortune by doing so.

Tough S**t they didn't think it through.

meh
03-22-2006 12:47 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
bagobitz
Veteran
Location: saddleworth,lancs,UK

Just a lateral thought on this issue...people who ARE using this dongle for illegal use of Reflex, WON'T BUY REFLEX ANYWAY...NEGLIGIBLE LOST SALES. the music industry finally woke up to this ,after trying to destroy Napster and the dozens of "ME TOO" sites their opressive tactics spawned.
Why did'nt these idiots just ask for the surrender of the illegal software-containing chip,or offer a legal license for it.


The half-wit who dreamed up this appaling Public-relations exercise, has done immeasureable harm to Reflex sales.
Isuspect that NO ONE holding an "illegal" dongle,will buy reflex.
others have already posted their feelings about this letter and their negative impression .


ROTOR SHARK the "value" is entirely subjective..as you so rightly say, there are stacks of reasonable free and low-cost Sims out there.
I decided the UK price was too high for my preferred Sim and imported it....I did not steal it....If your local chip shop does the best but wants £10, the shop down the road does "really good" and asks £5
YOU CHOOSE , you don't steal from the dearer shop.
Nobody TELLS them what the price should be, they take what the market will stand...If you had ever run a business, you would understand the economics involve...if the price is high,you sell less units and make more per unit.reduce the price,you may sell more units,but you have to claw back the lost margin on each unit and also cover extra labour,shipping,warranty work etc.
03-22-2006 01:05 PM
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Quote 
Who is "everyone"? You seem to forget the 99% without-problem-respecting-customers against the point something% theft and fraud

Somehow I don't believe these numbers. If the percentage of 'perceived' theft is that low Reflex would be very stupid to make such a negative fuss about it.

If you ask me the problem is bigger than that.
03-22-2006 01:20 PM
 
 
webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

somehow last time i checked, wasnt "blackmail" illegal too?

meh
03-22-2006 01:28 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Quote 
I can't see a case of blackmail here

Type this into google: define:blackmail
And find: obtain through threats

Tell me how the letter is any different. Or the way the addresses are obtained for that matter.
03-22-2006 01:39 PM
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Quote 
n your definition, how would you understand the speed limit on the road? Is it blackmail to tell you that overspeeding costs money like either you drive 50 only or we (the public) sue you and make you pay?


Your example doesn't make any sence. In case of the speeding limit you are warned before you drive too fast. You can still choose not to drive too fast.

In blackmail situation there is no choice. The term blackmail is also used in situations where it isn't illegal just not very nice to force somebody into a paying or doing something. I didn't say the letter was illegal only that it was blackmail.

And at least one of the German dealers was threatened to be sued if he didn't gave up his address list. This is also blackmail in my book. It may or may not be legal, I don't know.
03-22-2006 01:57 PM
 
 
webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

simster, maybe it would be interesting to hear this inside informaton out in the open, if its vital info, lets hear it

Also bagobits, cant 100% agree with your last thread, you mention bout music companies trying to shut down napster and failing etc, and saying its worthless trying because those who were doin it aint gonna buy anyway - but i used to doanload music illegally alot, and have since converted to itunes (better quality music, always works, and nice to think legal).

However if my Reflex USB interface breaks (which it will do eventually, it has a crack in it when i almost snapped the connector off) i can greatly assure you reflex will never get any more of my money. Going to be G3 all the way

"yes, I shot him but I didn't know someone could die from being shot."

Wait are you trying to imply that can kill someone????? didnt know that one

meh
03-22-2006 02:12 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
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