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Computer Flight Simulators > Anyone else got a letter from Reflex?
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

I got a letter from Reflex XTR stating that I bought an interface cable from a website in Germany. That cable was advertised as usable for about 8 different Flight-Sims including Reflex.

According to Reflex me buying that cable in Germany wasn't legal and they offered me to settle out of court for the amount of €69 (about $75) per cable bought + I have to send them the cable(s).

They actually stated that I bought 2 cables and that I have to pay twice the amount.

I did buy the cable in 2004 (only one though) but that cable also works for like 7 other flight-sims including the RealFlight that I legally own. It is a USB cable so that's why I preferred it over the parallel interface I got with RealFlight.

They are threatening me while they don't even know whether or not I own or use Reflex.

The got my name and address by pressing Mr. Wiedmann (perhaps in court) to give the names of his customers). This all happened in Germany.

The cable can still be bought on that site except it doesn't say that it also works for Reflex anymore (and probably doesn't).

If you ask me they are just trying to blackmail me to settle because they know it won't hold up in court. (I don't even live in Germany)

Anyone else got such a letter?
03-20-2006 08:21 PM
 
 
montarok
Key Veteran
Location: Brooklyn, NY

That's free advertising for that cable.

------------------------------------
www.carifuna.com
03-20-2006 08:30 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RCfan
Key Veteran
Location: Longwood, FL USA

Nope! But then, I didn't buy a pirated cable either.
03-20-2006 08:31 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Nothing wrong with that cable, as long as you use free flight sims or a legaly purchased copy of a non free flight sim I think.
03-20-2006 08:38 PM
 
 
RCfan
Key Veteran
Location: Longwood, FL USA

Sorry, but the cable exists for ONE REASON ... steal the copyrighted sims. I'm not saying that's how or why YOU are using it, but Reflex is simply protecting it's intellectual property (as they should). My recommendation to you is to seek legal council and make an educated decision on what's best course of action on your part.
03-20-2006 08:49 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Squirrlybird
Veteran
Location: Suffolk, Va US

Sounds like a load of crap to me. How can they try to come after you, when all you did is buy a cable from a different country. I dont think they could even get anything from you if they actually had a case against you. I am no lawyer so take what I say with a grain of salt.
03-20-2006 09:32 PM
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Even if the cable exists for that sole purpose it strikes me as odd that Reflex is going after me without them knowing whether or not I wanted that thing for Reflex. I could have bought that cable for any other sim on that list.

They assume I use it for Reflex while I might even be stealing RealFlight (which I don't, I have a payed for copy).

Quote 
My recommendation to you is to seek legal council and make an educated decision on what's best course of action on your part

Thank you for this good advice. I can not believe I'm threatened to be sued from another country for buying a product that in itself is not illegal and can be used for many legal purposes.
03-20-2006 09:38 PM
 
 
Colibri
Key Veteran
Location: The Netherlands

Quote 
I think the same principals would apply here. They can ask you to destroy or return the cable

The difference with the watch is that the cable was not stolen and doesn't belong to somebody else. What right does Reflex have to ask me to send them the cable?

It might be more like impounding a car because somebody broke the law with it but that is done by the government, not some company. And the law breaking has to be proven as well.

I think they bet on it that seeking legal advice is way more expensive than the $150 they like to get from me so they just try it.

Part of my just likes to pay to just get rid of it (see it's working) but the other part of me says bull$hit, I'm not even using Reflex, hell I don't even own a computer capable of running Reflex (I use a Mac and an old 450MHz PC for RealFlight).
03-20-2006 09:55 PM
 
 
Avetikus
Heliman
Location: Outer Sloboubia

Pawn shops:

The shop files a form with the local and state police and the sheriff's office at the beginning of a pawn. Most pawns are for 3 months at a time so local law enforcement has plenty of time to check that item against their lists of stolen items.

Then, once the person forfeits his property (by not paying the pawn) the pawnshop LEGALLY OWNS that item and can do whatever they want with it, which usually means they sell it. Once you buy it, it's yours.

No policeman can say the watch you bought in good faith MUST be returned. You can tell them to stick it in their ear and they can't say boo. Oh some may threaten you with being in posession of stolen property or some such, but that's bullying. That's not a legally-sanctioned action.

Reflex is trying to scare some money out of you. That's all. If you're not using it to pirate a copy of their software you have little to worry about.



Av

'heli' (n) 1. A contraption lifted and propelled by burning money.
03-20-2006 10:04 PM
 
 
Squirrlybird
Veteran
Location: Suffolk, Va US

If it were me (and I am not you), I would sit on it. If it goes to court, then you can spend the money on legal advice. The best is if you have a friend that knows the system in your country and get simple advice from that person. It doesn't sound like the value is high enough to worry about paying a lawyer. It doesn't seem that the value is even high enough for reflex to care about. This seems really weird. Contact Reflex and say "What the hell is this?". Maybe they will help you to understand better what is really going on. Or they will just raise your blood pressure. Really nothing to loose unless you have a bad heart.
03-20-2006 10:13 PM
 
 
webbhost
Key Veteran
Location: england - Leicester

Is there no form of data protection act that has been broken here? Surely the person you buy it off as an agreement with you that no information is passed to third parties?

Regardless, you paid for the wire, i dont see how they have any right to ask for you to send it them. Id just tell them im not sending it them, but if they want it that badly, they can purchase it off me for $300

meh
03-20-2006 11:12 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
RCHeliJim
Key Veteran
Location: Orem, UT USA

Quote 
Well behaviour like that is a SURE reason to NOT BUY FROM THEM!!!



AMEN - POOR form on their part.

I agree that they should have gone after the company that made the crack. And, they did. But to now go after the purchasers of this cable (which works with other sims as well) is insane. They should request that the cables be sent back, as they are found to be illegal to use with Reflex - but to demand monetary compensation on top of that is GREEDY and just as IMMORAL as using the cable in the first place.

Lawyers, mankinds ultimate downfall



Go Fly, Have Fun!!
-Team Quick UK
-Team RCHeliMag
03-20-2006 11:16 PM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
rotor- shark
Veteran
Location: uk

seek some proper legal advise first,but bear in mind that reflex and "swiss kurt"(who shall we say is a very big fan of reflex) monitors this site and it's posts,he will be reading this thread and everything that is posted here.

all comments are my opinion only!
03-20-2006 11:52 PM
 
 
RCfan
Key Veteran
Location: Longwood, FL USA

The cable was made to act like the Reflex dongle (incl. RF Interlink and others) ... since the Reflex dongle is their copyright and copy protection, that act alone makes the cable illegal in most countries. I don't think anyone can blame a vendor for protecting their rights and investments. Probably as part of the court arrangements, the "defendant" was required to mail notices to all it's customers on Reflex's behalf (then again, I know nothing of German law). I can understand demanding that any cables sold be returned, but not asking for any monetary damages from the defendant's customers (it's not their fault and may even have been unaware of the cable's illegality). I probably would believe that the defendant if being forced to pay the customers the $72 per cable instead of the other way around as posted up top. What was the original cable cost?

tvhalter, can you post the letter you received here??
03-21-2006 12:00 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

To that I say, let them pass it to their lawyers. The burden of proof is on them, it'll cost them a damn sight more than what they demanding you to pay for a lawyer to write a letter/phone you.

Si

-------------
Simon Lockington
03-21-2006 04:33 AM
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
nonpareil_one
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, TX

It's actions like that... companies going after the end user that cause me to personally and others as well to ban the purchase of their products.

The RIAA thinks it's file sharing that hurts CD sales not taking into consideration that perhaps it might have something to do with things like...

1. Copy protection that strips your fair use rights away
2. Crappy music
3. Poorly written DRM putting computers at risk
4. Really crappy music.

And you can insert "Movie" for "Music" and MPAA for RIAA and this fits there too.

Companies are going to need to come out with a better way to market their products to their customers and provide the freedom of use and abilities that consumers want if they want to remain relevant. Instead, they sue, or threaten to sue those whom they make money from.

I was even considering buying Reflex, but not now. G3 is good enough for me.



NPO
03-21-2006 04:45 AM
 
 
Laurens
Key Veteran
Location: NL, behind my computer

I got a letter stating I have to send them 138 euro for 2 "reflex" dongles. Since the first one was lost in mail, I only have 1 which isn't usable for XTR only, I can use it for multiple programs.

They also stated that I had to send them both dongles (see letter) but since one is lost I can't do that. They'll either sue me and get one or get zero.

I bought a LEGAL copy of Reflex secondhand, but lost my dongle after about half a year. Since they don't sell separate dongles (why???) I bought one from Belgium, since I have a legal copy.

Team RC-TEK
Team Airthunder
03-21-2006 08:28 AM
 
 
nonpareil_one
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas, TX

It seems as though some of the EU countries have laws similar to our own ridiculous DMCA which has a clause in it such as follows in 17 U.S.C. 1201 part 2

(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person’s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

Here's the primary flaw with that... What defines that something's "primary" use is to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work? DirecTV went on a rampage suing people for smart card reader / writers that can be used in any number of security implementations. Windows 2000/XP systems even support them natively as login tokens. But they sent letters out and DID sue people over 20-30 dollar smart card readers because they could potentially be used to "circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access".

The primary flaw with these modern anti-consumer copyright laws is that you are offered a settlement, or it goes to court at which point you spend your own money with no hope of recompense just to defend your rights. And these companies, when they do, file the lawsuits state by state with dozens of "John Doe" defendents on them so as to have a state law firm rack up on the settlement payouts all the while spending a minimum of time on the case. So basically, these companies are suing for profit against consumers. It's a sad state of affairs...



NPO
03-21-2006 09:03 AM
 
 
gof407
Heliman
Location: Nederland

Well, bad luck for Reflex XTR

U just registered myself only because to give a response for what Reflex XTR is doing... BAD!
You can buy mod schips for your PS2, XBOX, etc. They aren't illegal. You can buy them, but it depends who's building them in the equipment. And as for Reflex XTR, this is *real* bad publicity fro them. Sending letters to peopple for who has nothing to do with those cables. This is nothing more than scaring the people...
I HATE THAT!

Who th f**k are they to do this, even it's wrong or not, you can't hunt people down like that...

I guess they are doing this because they feel the heat of G3, they have a very good concept, and they can knock of Reflex XTR from the play ground only if G3 add some extra features on their simulator.

I don't care nomore for Reflex XTR. If you are telling that those companies have to protect them self, rethink again, not like this!
03-21-2006 09:34 AM
 
 
Tuinkabouter
Heliman
Location: Groenlo, Holland

Now hold on...it's an USB dongle which makes it possible to use your Tx as USB Joystick, and an additional feature is to use it with reflex XTR, together with other sims or games or if you like it, use it in Photoshop as controller instead of your mouse.

It's a "homebrew" designed dongle, so reflex doesn't have any legal right on the dongle.

Your computer makes it possible to use an illegal reflex, do they have to confiscate your pc ?
03-21-2006 10:30 AM
 
 
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Computer Flight Simulators > Anyone else got a letter from Reflex?
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